Wrestling Youth Development compared to US Soccer Development

[BuckyBadger]

Much has been written on here about the American approach to youth development in wrestling, and what we do wrong in our approach.
 

I came across this quote from Landon Donovan (former US Soccer player) about youth development of soccer in the US. His words are eerily similar to criticisms I’ve seen of wrestling voiced by guys like Askren, Hrovat etc.

It brings up the idea that our problem to youth development in sports here is not really sport specific, but more of a cultural problem.

“My kids are in youth soccer. I see youth soccer environments. It’s a disaster. An absolute disaster.”

“The kids are developing but nowhere near the rate they could be. It’s wasteful. It’s a cultural problem in America.”

“This is my opinion. One thing amazing about America is we want to win everything and be the best at everything. The problem is that trickles down to a six-year-old’s soccer games.”

“The emphasis on a six-year-old should be getting better, not winning soccer games. There are coaches I hear say ‘this coach I’m coaching next week is my arch nemesis. We have to win that game.' And I'm thinking what the hell is wrong with you? You're coaching seven-year-olds, that's not what this is about."

"Or they say this tournament is very important so we have to win and five out of 10 players might not play as much. It's ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous."

"The incentive structure is totally backwards. We will never compete at that level unless we get that part right."

Edited September 3 by BuckyBadger

[flyingcement]

Growth was always prioritized to me above winning in wrestling.  When I was cheesing a headlock in third grade, and continually beating guys with it, my coach forbade me to do it so I could expand my offense.  

I can only really speak to my own personal anecdotes though, and am not sure about what the national landscape would like like in that regard.  

[The Kid]

2 hours ago, BuckyBadger said:

Much has been written on here about the American approach to youth development in wrestling, and what we do wrong in our approach.
 

I came across this quote from Landon Donovan (former US Soccer player) about youth development of soccer in the US. His words are eerily similar to criticisms I’ve seen of wrestling voiced by guys like Askren, Hrovat etc.

It brings up the idea that our problem to youth development in sports here is not really sport specific, but more of a cultural problem.

“My kids are in youth soccer. I see youth soccer environments. It’s a disaster. An absolute disaster.”

“The kids are developing but nowhere near the rate they could be. It’s wasteful. It’s a cultural problem in America.”

“This is my opinion. One thing amazing about America is we want to win everything and be the best at everything. The problem is that trickles down to a six-year-old’s soccer games.”

“The emphasis on a six-year-old should be getting better, not winning soccer games. There are coaches I hear say ‘this coach I’m coaching next week is my arch nemesis. We have to win that game.' And I'm thinking what the hell is wrong with you? You're coaching seven-year-olds, that's not what this is about."

"Or they say this tournament is very important so we have to win and five out of 10 players might not play as much. It's ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous."

"The incentive structure is totally backwards. We will never compete at that level unless we get that part right."

Parents coaching their kids is a problem.  A real big problem.

[Jim L]

USA wrestling does fair much better than USA soccer. well at than men's soccer.

Do or women's soccer results mean that we are doing youth development right right for girls, or is it more likely that there is just less competition worldwide for woman's soccer, similar to wrestling.

 

 

[TylerDurden]

1 hour ago, Jim L said:

USA wrestling does fair much better than USA soccer. well at than men's soccer.

Do or women's soccer results mean that we are doing youth development right right for girls, or is it more likely that there is just less competition worldwide for woman's soccer, similar to wrestling.

 

 

It's probably a bit of both. The US is ahead of just about everyone else in women's athletics simply because there have been more opportunities for longer. We also do have a pretty robust youth system, as imperfect as it is.

Donovan does have a point, though he is painting with a broad brush. I basically live in the (girls) club soccer world these days and there certainly are a number of soccer clubs who basically sell the idea of winning to parents. Those clubs typically teach their kids at a young age how to "win" the game. For those familiar with soccer, that basically means they teach their players how to sit in a low block, be physical, and send long balls to the other side. It's tough for anyone to score against a low block, much less 8-9-10 year-olds or any youth player. So the club "wins" the game or the tournament. The kids get a medal. The parents get to post on social media about how great their kid is....but those kids don't learn how to play.

There are clubs who approach things differently, but they are definitely in the minority. They'll focus on developing technical ability at a young age and implement tactics, formation, etc., as the players get older and more physically mature. You might see these teams lose a bunch in the younger years, but the tide starts to switch at older age groups because they've learned how to play and can think about the game and not simply how to pass from A-to-B-to-C. They teach technique, concepts, and ideas to the young kids and it tends to pay off later. 

The other aspect of all of this is financial. It's expensive to play in these clubs, regardless of which version you find yourself in. But in my experience and to my knowledge, the cost aspect doesn't exclude as many kids as some want you to believe. There are plenty of scholarship/funding sources or flat-our fee waivers for players who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford to play at a club. There are scouts for the clubs who recruit promising players.

It's certainly not a perfect structure for men's or women's soccer, but changing the most prevalent approach is a pretty tall task because "winning" right now is very appealing and patience, as virtuous as it is, seems to be in short supply. Donovan's point about the rate of development for young US players as a whole is well made. I don't think there's much argument there.

There's a lot to unpack, but that's a Reader's Digest version from my point of view.

Edited September 4 by TylerDurden

[Old Dirty]

1. We have been in the top 3 in wrestling for a long time.  Cut us a break.  We were world champs last year, the year before, and we are kinda good.

[BuckyBadger]

On 9/4/2024 at 8:19 PM, Old Dirty said:

1. We have been in the top 3 in wrestling for a long time.  Cut us a break.  We were world champs last year, the year before, and we are kinda good.

You’re right, and I don’t meant to discount that. We can pull that off with a folk style focus and prioritizing winning at a young age over technique/development. We could just be a lot better.

[WrestlingRasta]

Interesting topic at the right time. I’m in the process of opening a club that I’m going to run more like a rec program rather than a USAW club, basically for that exact purpose of not focusing on competition as much as development. Instead of a ‘season’ where we practice a couple times a week and tournament every Saturday, we are going to do six week sessions, throughout the calendar year. Community wide program not at all tied to a HS with the emphasis of just coming together and growing. 
 

Would love to take in any tips or feedbacks. Starting/ managing programs is nothing new to me, been doing it for years at every level, but it’s been in the focus of competition in the past.  This is more of a recreational development for youth (with a couple HS training sessions thrown in each week as well) 

[CHROMEBIRD]

6 hours ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Interesting topic at the right time. I’m in the process of opening a club that I’m going to run more like a rec program rather than a USAW club, basically for that exact purpose of not focusing on competition as much as development. Instead of a ‘season’ where we practice a couple times a week and tournament every Saturday, we are going to do six week sessions, throughout the calendar year. Community wide program not at all tied to a HS with the emphasis of just coming together and growing. 
 

Would love to take in any tips or feedbacks. Starting/ managing programs is nothing new to me, been doing it for years at every level, but it’s been in the focus of competition in the past.  This is more of a recreational development for youth (with a couple HS training sessions thrown in each week as well) 

I really like the idea of this. Out of curiosity, what style will your club be focused on. I know freestyle is your clear preference, but wondered if the youth aspect had any bearing on it.

Not trying to open a can of worms either; while there are stark differences in technique and strategy between free and folk, I actually think you can get kids to develop more fundamental wrestling skills early on, like mat awareness, situational decision-making, chain wrestling, safety, and working with their own best assets (height/length, speed, strength, flexibility, conditioning) regardless of what style it is... kind of like the clubs @TylerDurden mentioned earlier. Maybe I just answered my own question, lol.

[WrestlingRasta]

45 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

I really like the idea of this. Out of curiosity, what style will your club be focused on. I know freestyle is your clear preference, but wondered if the youth aspect had any bearing on it.

Not trying to open a can of worms either; while there are stark differences in technique and strategy between free and folk, I actually think you can get kids to develop more fundamental wrestling skills early on, like mat awareness, situational decision-making, chain wrestling, safety, and working with their own best assets (height/length, speed, strength, flexibility, conditioning) regardless of what style it is... kind of like the clubs @TylerDurden mentioned earlier. Maybe I just answered my own question, lol.

Appreciate the question.  Greco is actually my #1 preference, but at this point I kind of roll with the tide..

That said, I’m going to introduce all three styles, and I would say I’m going to focus probably 70% on our feet.  Particular with the younger groups it’s going to be more about fundamental movement and skills rather than a bunch of technique.  In my area, you don’t hear much about, or see, the seven basic skills; the 3x5; and stuff like that.  

 

 

[Bulldog]

Is this too far-fetched?

Year in and year out, the very best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in New Zealand play rugby.  They excel at rugby.  

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in France play soccer.  They excel at soccer.

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in India play cricket.  They excel at cricket.

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in the USA play American football and to some extent, basketball.

You get the idea...

Our biggest and best ain't playing soccer which is why the USA is just ok on the world stage.  There are great athletes playing for Team USA, but we are not sending our nation's best like France and Brazil are.  If our very best grew up playing halfback on the soccer pitch instead of halfback in Pop Warner leagues, USA soccer would be in the mix every year.

One could very much make the argument that our very best female athletes ARE playing soccer, which explains American success in world-level soccer.

 

 

Edited September 8 by Bulldog

[WrestlingRasta]

Not too far fetched at all. Very legit. If your in the HS ranks what’s your #1 hallway recruiting tool…..wrestling is great for football!

[Jim L]

11 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Is this too far-fetched?

Year in and year out, the very best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in New Zealand play rugby.  They excel at rugby.  

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in France play soccer.  They excel at soccer.

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in India play cricket.  They excel at cricket.

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in the USA play American football and to some extent, basketball.

You get the idea...

Our biggest and best ain't playing soccer which is why the USA is just ok on the world stage.  There are great athletes playing for Team USA, but we are not sending our nation's best like France and Brazil are.  If our very best grew up playing halfback on the soccer pitch instead of halfback in Pop Warner leagues, USA soccer would be in the mix every year.

One could very much make the argument that our very best female athletes ARE playing soccer, which explains American success in world-level soccer.

 

 

Seems logical, but the top average-sized US athletes (5'8"ish, 160lbs or so) are not going to be football or bball stars.

Coaching and competion is why regions excel in a particular sports

[MPhillips]

5 hours ago, Jim L said:

Seems logical, but the top average-sized US athletes (5'8"ish, 160lbs or so) are not going to be football or bball stars.

Wasn't that his point... FB and BB get the best.

[Jim L]

11 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

Wasn't that his point... FB and BB get the best.

Only if you equate size with being the best. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

16 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Is this too far-fetched?

Year in and year out, the very best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in New Zealand play rugby.  They excel at rugby.  

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in France play soccer.  They excel at soccer.

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in India play cricket.  They excel at cricket.

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in the USA play American football and to some extent, basketball.

You get the idea...

Our biggest and best ain't playing soccer which is why the USA is just ok on the world stage.  There are great athletes playing for Team USA, but we are not sending our nation's best like France and Brazil are.  If our very best grew up playing halfback on the soccer pitch instead of halfback in Pop Warner leagues, USA soccer would be in the mix every year.

One could very much make the argument that our very best female athletes ARE playing soccer, which explains American success in world-level soccer.

Do the best, biggest, and strongest in Russia all wrestle?

[MPhillips]

7 minutes ago, Jim L said:

Only if you equate size with being the best. 

"best, biggest, and strongest..."

There are 5'8" Rugby players who are the, "best" for their size.  I believe you understand...

[Jim L]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

"best, biggest, and strongest..."

There are 5'8" Rugby players who are the, "best" for their size.  I believe you understand...

No. I really don't get what you are trying to say. BBall and Football are not stealing all the best athletes, just the majority of the unusually tall/large ones. 

 

[Old Dirty]

Are you seriously equating athletic supremacy between USA, France, and New Zealand?  We have NFL, NBA, MLB, NCAA.  Btw, South Africa won in rugby last year, and India hasnt won in cricket since 2011 if I remember.  USA is crushing it in athletics.  To be fair, I competed for this country, and my favorite song is the Star Spangled Banner, so I admit I may be biased.  We are winners despite what the media portrays.  We win

[Bulldog]

5 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Do the best, biggest, and strongest in Russia all wrestle?

No, but I do think the very best athletes in Dagestan and Chechnya, a region roughly with the same population as countries like New Zealand, are wrestling.

[Bulldog]

6 hours ago, Jim L said:

Only if you equate size with being the best. 

I'm saying that if USA Soccer wants to consistently compete with Brazil, France, etc... they need to get those guys who become elite football, basketball, and baseball players.  In our culture that ain't happening very often.  I guarantee you it does in San Paulo or the suburbs of Paris.   

[TylerDurden]

On 9/7/2024 at 9:56 PM, Bulldog said:

Is this too far-fetched?

Year in and year out, the very best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in New Zealand play rugby.  They excel at rugby.  

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in France play soccer.  They excel at soccer.

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in India play cricket.  They excel at cricket.

Year in and year out, the best, biggest, and strongest male athletes in the USA play American football and to some extent, basketball.

You get the idea...

Our biggest and best ain't playing soccer which is why the USA is just ok on the world stage.  There are great athletes playing for Team USA, but we are not sending our nation's best like France and Brazil are.  If our very best grew up playing halfback on the soccer pitch instead of halfback in Pop Warner leagues, USA soccer would be in the mix every year.

One could very much make the argument that our very best female athletes ARE playing soccer, which explains American success in world-level soccer.

 

 

Athleticism is part of it, but what you just described is cultural. Kids in Spain, France, etc. play in the square after school - I've seen it up close and it was amazing to see the creativity the young kids had to use to avoid all of the obstacles - people, cafe dining areas, dogs, etc. 

The US isn't behind other countries athletically in soccer, quite the opposite. The biggest deficit the US faces, IMO, is tactically and to a lesser extent, technically. Athleticism helps overcome some deficits, but at the highest levels - especially in the men's game - athleticism can't overcome tactical or technical shortcomings. 

To me this is all influenced by the early years of learning. Did your first few coaches tell you to pass from point A to point B? Or did they teach you how to be comfortable on the ball so that you can be calm, read the game and make the appropriate pass and/or movements for the situation? It's programming versus ideas. Ideas win in the long run. Structure makes parents feel good, freedom helps kids learn sports in their own way. 

I do want to distinguish between the men's and women's games because they play out differently. It is far more likely that you can physically overwhelm teams in the women's game than it is the men's game. There is a greater advantage for a women's team to be more athletic than their opponent than there is on the men's side. BUT...that's not enough at the top end, as the US found out last World Cup. The Olympics was a vastly different approach for the US women and showed what superior athleticism coupled with tactical acumen can do. 

I think @Jim L is correct that coaching (training methods) and competition are major factors, in addition to the local cultural influences. 

[PortaJohn]

On 9/3/2024 at 2:31 PM, BuckyBadger said:

Much has been written on here about the American approach to youth development in wrestling, and what we do wrong in our approach.
 

I came across this quote from Landon Donovan (former US Soccer player) about youth development of soccer in the US. His words are eerily similar to criticisms I’ve seen of wrestling voiced by guys like Askren, Hrovat etc.

It brings up the idea that our problem to youth development in sports here is not really sport specific, but more of a cultural problem.

Grew up playing travel soccer until I focused solely on football come fall.  Disagree on the culture problem.  I would equate it more to what we have in wrestling with states like PA and Ohio where wrestlers go to their club team and are getting trained by former All Americans.  Same thing with Soccer overseas.  The kids are getting taught to play by former players with a lot of knowledge.  This isn't happening in US youth soccer 

Edited September 10 by PortaJohn

[UsedToBe103]

On 9/7/2024 at 5:23 PM, WrestlingRasta said:

Appreciate the question.  Greco is actually my #1 preference, but at this point I kind of roll with the tide..

That said, I’m going to introduce all three styles, and I would say I’m going to focus probably 70% on our feet.  Particular with the younger groups it’s going to be more about fundamental movement and skills rather than a bunch of technique.  In my area, you don’t hear much about, or see, the seven basic skills; the 3x5; and stuff like that.  

 

 

What is the 3x5?

[WrestlingRasta]

50 minutes ago, UsedToBe103 said:

What is the 3x5?

From Brandon Slay.  "3 P's" with five points of emphasis to each.   (Position, Penetration, Protection)