Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 (edited) 21 minutes ago, fishbane said: Iowa used this lineup for two duals last season. The topic says field a team and doesn't mention postseason. Swafford received an overlooked gambling ban and Voinovich lost his spot to Rathjen. 133 Brody Teske 141 Real Woods 149 Victor Voinovich 157 Jared Franek 165 Michael Caliendo 184 Brennan Swafford I'm sure several teams could feature a lineup with a bunch of transfers, especially now. The fact remains is that wasn't their best lineup, and never was. Not really the "starters." Edited August 29 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: I'm sure several teams could feature a lineup with a bunch of transfers, especially now. The fact remains is that wasn't their best lineup, and never was. Not really the "starters." That was their starting lineup at the start of the season. Those were the first 2 duals. Swafford was the starting 184. They overlooked him in handing out suspensions, maybe prosecutors didn't realize he was on the team or something since he was a backup last year, but he wrestled in the first two duals of the year and the Luther open, before Iowa wrestled Gabe Arnold up at 184 for the ISU dual. Then the error got corrected and he was out. Gabe Arnold's redshirt was never pulled so you can't really say he was the starter. Voinovich was also first choice to start the season. He wrestled in the first 4 duals including the ISU dual. Gotta think Iowa was trying to put their best lineup out there. Ultimately Rathjen beat him at the Salute, but he still wrestled in 7 duals. Do you know of another example of a two 5 team using 6 or more transfer wrestlers in a dual? Edited August 29 by fishbane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fishbane Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 7 hours ago, 1032004 said: Yeah I think the overall point is that as far as transfers into PSU go, for the most part they stay as pretty much the same guy they were before. And to the subject of the thread, I’d say that’s mostly true for Iowa too. Off the top of my head Michigan may have the best argument for transfers actually improving. They've had a couple do worse, but several do better such as Davison 5th to 2nd, Gomez 4th to 2nd, and Finesilver R16 to R12. Cael may have some secret sauce, but seems like guys may need to be there for their whole career to see the benefit of it. I don't really agree with this. I follow what people are trying to say, but I think it cherry picks the data by removing wrestlers like Lawson, Kerkvliet and Mesenbrink from the analysis and turns a more general point into a PSU point. There is a selection bias to the transfers that go to big schools like PSU, Iowa, and Michigan. They are mostly not top 20 guys out of high school that made significant improvement in college and are transferring at a high point. The improvement left to make is the most difficult and there is plenty of room to go down. Still they get better on average Which school has done better with transfers? PSU: Sanderson, Long, Lawson, Cortez, Kuhn, Conel, Kerkvliet, Dean, Hildebrandt, Mesenbrink, Nagao, Truax. 11AAs, 2 Titles, 6 years of eligibility remaining at PSU Iowa: Lugo, DeSanto, Eierman, Teske, Swafford, Woods, Franek, Caliendo, Voinovich, Parco, Teemer, Buchanan, Joey Cruz 9AAs, 0 titles, 10 years of eligibility remaining at Iowa. OSU: Caldwell, White, Smith, Geer, Young, Spratley, Jamison, Olejnik, Amine, Fish, Hamiti, Hendrickson 7 AAs, 0 titles, 12 years of eligibility remaining at OSU. Michigan: Micic, Storr, Finesilver, Brucki, Suriano, Davison, Cannon, DeAugustino, Griffith, Saldate, Cardenas 6AAs, 1 title, 4 years of eligibility remaining at Michigan Bold= transferred after AA placement at previous institution Italic = transferred after national title at previous institution 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 1 hour ago, fishbane said: I don't really agree with this. I follow what people are trying to say, but I think it cherry picks the data by removing wrestlers like Lawson, Kerkvliet and Mesenbrink from the analysis and turns a more general point into a PSU point. What don’t you agree with? You can’t count those guys because they have no postseason performance to compare to (same with Micic, Spratley and any other guy that transfers before having wrestled an NCAA tournament - they’re still transfers, they just can’t really be part of the “did they improve after they transferred” argument). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 1 hour ago, fishbane said: I don't really agree with this. I follow what people are trying to say, but I think it cherry picks the data by removing wrestlers like Lawson, Kerkvliet and Mesenbrink from the analysis and turns a more general point into a PSU point. There is a selection bias to the transfers that go to big schools like PSU, Iowa, and Michigan. They are mostly not top 20 guys out of high school that made significant improvement in college and are transferring at a high point. The improvement left to make is the most difficult and there is plenty of room to go down. Still they get better on average Which school has done better with transfers? PSU: Sanderson, Long, Lawson, Cortez, Kuhn, Conel, Kerkvliet, Dean, Hildebrandt, Mesenbrink, Nagao, Truax. 11AAs, 2 Titles, 6 years of eligibility remaining at PSU Iowa: Lugo, DeSanto, Eierman, Teske, Swafford, Woods, Franek, Caliendo, Voinovich, Parco, Teemer, Buchanan, Joey Cruz 9AAs, 0 titles, 10 years of eligibility remaining at Iowa. OSU: Caldwell, White, Smith, Geer, Young, Spratley, Jamison, Olejnik, Amine, Fish, Hamiti, Hendrickson 7 AAs, 0 titles, 12 years of eligibility remaining at OSU. Michigan: Micic, Storr, Finesilver, Brucki, Suriano, Davison, Cannon, DeAugustino, Griffith, Saldate, Cardenas 6AAs, 1 title, 4 years of eligibility remaining at Michigan Bold= transferred after AA placement at previous institution Italic = transferred after national title at previous institution My memory is short so I’m going to keep this to the last 4 seasons, starting with your list. So far, comparing best NCAA tournament finishes for starters at old vs new school: PSU- Dean better Hildebrandt worse Nagao worse (still time to improve) Truax worse Iowa- Lugo better Desanto better Eierman better Woods better Teske same Franek worse Caliendo better Michigan- Davison better Gomez better DeAugustino worse Finesilver better Griffith worse Suriano same Brucki worse Storr same Based on this data, you could make an argument that Iowa has done the best with improving transfers. I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I think it should at least dispel the narrative out there that Iowa’s transfers end up getting burned out or whatever. But really throughout almost the whole list most guys placement only changed by a couple places, hence my statement that most of the big name transfers “were pretty much the same guy they were before.” IMO, the 2 biggest improvements were Davison and Gomez, who went from never making an NCAA semi, to making the finals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnyt9 Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 4 hours ago, 1032004 said: My memory is short so I’m going to keep this to the last 4 seasons, starting with your list. So far, comparing best NCAA tournament finishes for starters at old vs new school: PSU- Dean better Hildebrandt worse Nagao worse (still time to improve) Truax worse Iowa- Lugo better Desanto better Eierman better Woods better Teske same Franek worse Caliendo better Michigan- Davison better Gomez better DeAugustino worse Finesilver better Griffith worse Suriano same Brucki worse Storr same Based on this data, you could make an argument that Iowa has done the best with improving transfers. I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I think it should at least dispel the narrative out there that Iowa’s transfers end up getting burned out or whatever. But really throughout almost the whole list most guys placement only changed by a couple places, hence my statement that most of the big name transfers “were pretty much the same guy they were before.” IMO, the 2 biggest improvements were Davison and Gomez, who went from never making an NCAA semi, to making the finals. Real Woods..... best finish at Stanford was 6th went to the finals with Iowa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 2 hours ago, Johnyt9 said: Real Woods..... best finish at Stanford was 6th went to the finals with Iowa. He did make the semis that year though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted August 31 Share Posted August 31 2 hours ago, Johnyt9 said: Real Woods..... best finish at Stanford was 6th went to the finals with Iowa. I never understood that 6th place after he gave Nick Lee his toughest match of the tournie. As for the finals, that was a year the weight cleared out. He was the second highest finishing returner the year he finished second. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AgaveMaria Posted September 1 Share Posted September 1 It is Iowa. Can we change "Top 5" to "Top 2-5"? ” Never attribute to inspiration that which can be adequately explained by delusion”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miles Burke Glenbard South, Illinois Class of 2025 Committed to Southwest MN State Projected Weight: 174, 184
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