Should NCAA wrestling adopt all or some freestyle rules?

[billyhoyle]

31 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Which style is better suited for wrestlers who want to compete in MMA down the road? Intuitively, developing the muscle memory and skill to control & ride your opponent seems more advantageous for MMA than avoiding back exposure or forcing step-outs. I really don't know, but just something to consider.

The best wrestlers in MMA have been Cormier, Cejudo, and Khabib, so the answer to your question is freestyle. 

[1032004]

32 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Which style is better suited for wrestlers who want to compete in MMA down the road? Intuitively, developing the muscle memory and skill to control & ride your opponent seems more advantageous for MMA than avoiding back exposure or forcing step-outs. I really don't know, but just something to consider.

I would definitely say folkstyle due to top/bottom IMO.  

[CHROMEBIRD]

58 minutes ago, Spladle08 said:

Run rampant with arguments as you will but, "which style more easily allows our wrestlers to leave wrestling harming our senior level team quality"  isn't a great argument. If the end goal is MMA we should add in submissions. 
If the end goal is Senior level success.....

Fair point, I hear you. The freestyle attrition will likely happen either way, though. An equally important goal might be to get more kids to give wrestling a try. If MMA can help get more kids in the door, I'd be okay with that. If MMA could give college wrestlers more NIL deals and help fund more programs, even better. Last one is a bit of a stretch right now, though!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

51 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

The best wrestlers in MMA have been Cormier, Cejudo, and Khabib, so the answer to your question is freestyle. 

Cormier and Cejudo had folkstyle backgrounds. 
Khabib had about 99% of takedowns against a fence. Did he enter freestyle tourneys?

[Caveira]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Got it, mostly agree although I guess depends on your definition of “harmed.”  Maybe not a significant number but I think we definitely lose some fans particularly in the short term if college switched to freestyle.

We probably lose some youth wrestlers too assuming we make the switch at all levels.

The biggest challenge IMO would be coaches.  I’d guess something like 90% of youth/high school coaches have little if any freestyle experience.

The us made a big push into soccer years back.  The ayso play soccer initiative.  The coaches we have here have no impact on world soccer (for the most part).   You’re not wrong here.  

[billyhoyle]

5 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Cormier and Cejudo had folkstyle backgrounds. 
Khabib had about 99% of takedowns against a fence. Did he enter freestyle tourneys?

Khabib was probably the best wrestler in MMA history, along with GSP.  They definitely did not have a folkstyle background. 

Cormier had done folkstyle, but was a much better freestyler than he was at folkstyle (0X NCAA champion, but long time world team member with medals), and had not done folkstyle for about a decade when he transitioned to MMA.

Cejudo barely wrestled any folkstyle. When he was competing in HS tournaments in AZ, he was taking people down and letting them up-basically practicing his freestyle wrestling. 

 

The best way to train for MMA with wrestling would be to do freestyle neutral (as it discourages rolling across your back with scrambling and encourages clean finishes) and then to also train BJJ. Folkstyle top/bottom does not substitute for BJJ and if anything might just teach some bad habits. 

Edited Sunday at 11:25 PM by billyhoyle

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Khabib was probably the best wrestler in MMA history, along with GSP.  They definitely did not have a folkstyle background. 

Cormier had done folkstyle, but was a much better freestyler than he was at folkstyle (0X NCAA champion, but long time world team member with medals), and had not done folkstyle for about a decade when he transitioned to MMA.

Cejudo barely wrestled any folkstyle. When he was competing in HS tournaments in AZ, he was taking people down and letting them up-basically practicing his freestyle wrestling. 

 

The best way to train for MMA with wrestling would be to do freestyle neutral (as it discourages rolling across your back with scrambling and encourages clean finishes) and then to also train BJJ. Folkstyle top/bottom does not substitute for BJJ and if anything might just teach some bad habits. 

But Cormier and Cejudo wrestled folk, correct?

Did Khabib ever wrestle one freestyle match? How many takedowns did he get in the fever of the cage?

What about Yoel Romero?

Couture? Henderson? Lidell?

[billyhoyle]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

But Cormier and Cejudo wrestled folk, correct?

Did Khabib ever wrestle one freestyle match? How many takedowns did he get in the fever of the cage?

What about Yoel Romero?

Couture? Henderson? Lidell?

Yoel Romero was like 40 when he joined MMA.  Couture was great-I guess Greco is helpful too (Lingland more evidence of this). I just don't think Folkstyle is special when the Russians seem to be great MMA fighters and the folkstyle specialists like Rosholt, Konrad, Hendricks, Palmer etc were good but not as successful as the freestylers. 

[WrestleFan12]

19 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Folkstyle top/bottom does not substitute for BJJ and if anything might just teach some bad habits. 

If you were in a fight, who would you rather be on top of - a freestyler who can't spell reversal or escape, or a folkstyler?

[1032004]

22 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

Khabib was probably the best wrestler in MMA history, along with GSP.  They definitely did not have a folkstyle background. 

Cormier had done folkstyle, but was a much better freestyler than he was at folkstyle (0X NCAA champion, but long time world team member with medals), and had not done folkstyle for about a decade when he transitioned to MMA.

Cejudo barely wrestled any folkstyle. When he was competing in HS tournaments in AZ, he was taking people down and letting them up-basically practicing his freestyle wrestling. 

 

The best way to train for MMA with wrestling would be to do freestyle neutral (as it discourages rolling across your back with scrambling and encourages clean finishes) and then to also train BJJ. Folkstyle top/bottom does not substitute for BJJ and if anything might just teach some bad habits. 

How is “rolling across your back with scrambling” bad in MMA?

In terms of “bad habits,” in all styles of wrestling being held on your back is bad but in MMA it seems to be a common defensive position.

I would think being able to get out from bottom would be a good skill to have in MMA as opposed to freestyle where you just have to lay flat for 10 seconds and not get turned.

[billyhoyle]

Just now, WrestleFan12 said:

If you were in a fight, who would you rather be on top of - a freestyler who can't spell reversal or escape, or a folkstyler?

Folkstyler because I know if they get up, they are going to be way less dangerous from neutral. I'm assuming a freestyler can know a basic stand up technique. 

[forkemaz]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Coaching challenges is an excellent point. Any transition would be painful. It would need to be decided the gain outweighed the pain.

As for youth wrestlers, I think they would enjoy it. Is there anything worse than spending your first X number of practices trying to figure out how to get off bottom?

I thunk the fans you lose are in the 50-80+ range who grew up with folk.

I just feel like should say im under 35 and my entire crew of wrestling friends are under 35 and we watch less freestyle than the demographic you mentioned of 50+ (in the crowds i run in) . I wouldnt buy season tickets to freestyle and would likely give up watching and i know my friends would as i watch more freestyle than any of them. I think you are really underestimating why people enjoy folkstyle. Im not trying to start the argument all over again im just throwing in  my 2 cents on this last post. 

I dont want to feel like ive outgrown watching wrestling but switching to freestlye would do it. I stopped watching football because they ruined the game with rule changes. In fact you hear that about the NBA and NFL (i beleive veiwership may be up for NFL/NBA? I dont really know) and i would do the same if we get rid of American style wrestling. I think others might feel the same way, change the rules, change the game, lose fans.

[billyhoyle]

Just now, 1032004 said:

How is “rolling across your back with scrambling” bad in MMA?

In terms of “bad habits,” in all styles of wrestling being held on your back is bad but in MMA it seems to be a common defensive position.

I would think being able to get out from bottom would be a good skill to have in MMA as opposed to freestyle where you just have to lay flat for 10 seconds and not get turned.

It is worse than a clean sprawl/spin around or countershot, which Freestyle encourages. Folkstyle wrestlers who get in the habit of letting their opponents get to their leg are not as good defensively in MMA because scrambling doesn't work as well. 

[Ohio Elite]

 

[Caveira]

Missing so many?

frankie Edgar.   Matt Hughes.  Jon jones.   Yuck Tito Ortiz.     Lesnar.  Sonnen.   Nikal?   He’s young yet.   Mark Colman.   Cain Velasquez.    Tyron woodley.   Johnny Hendrix.   Chad Mendez.    Askren.  Josh Koscheck (spelling?),  Rashad Evans, Dan sveum (spelling?), randalman, mo lawal, Ryan bader, Faber + more….. I give up on names lol.  
 

I didn’t find the list.  But Does folkstyle wrestlers not own more ufc championships than any other discipline?  By a decent margin.  

[Caveira]

Cool list.  Apologize for any typos I am typing on my iPhone.  
 

Hwt

- Mark coleman
- Sir randy couture (several times)
- Kevin randleman
- Josh barnett
- Ricco rodriguez
- Mr brock Lesnar
- Shane carwin
- Cain valesquez (multiple times)
- Daniel cormeir

Light hwt

- Tito Ortiz
- Frank shamrock
- Couture (twice)
- Chuck liddell
- Rashad evans
- Jon jones
- Cormeir (multiple? I think)
- Jon jones

Middleweight

- Evan tanner
- Chris Weidman
- Rob whitaker
- Georges st pierre

Welterweight

- Pat miletich (big time coach)
- Matt hughes (multiple times)
- Johnny Hendricks
- Robbie lawler
- Tyron Woodley
- Colby Covington

Lightweight

·     Sean sherk

[CHROMEBIRD]

Darrion Caldwell?

[Caveira]

2 hours ago, billyhoyle said:

The best wrestlers in MMA have been Cormier, Cejudo, and Khabib, so the answer to your question is freestyle. 

2/3 of your list has a folkstyle base.  How do you make the argument that…….     A lifetime of folk does not translate to free.   And list a bunch of them.   Seems like a circular argument.  

[1032004]

48 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

It is worse than a clean sprawl/spin around or countershot, which Freestyle encourages. Folkstyle wrestlers who get in the habit of letting their opponents get to their leg are not as good defensively in MMA because scrambling doesn't work as well. 

Freestyle also encourages a crotch lift/chest wrap which often results in that guy ending up on bottom.

Have there been many successful folkstylers who “get in the habit of letting their opponents get to their leg”?  I know there are some but don’t think it’s common IMO.  And heck Dake seems to do it now in free but didn’t in folk that I can recall.

 

Edited Monday at 12:39 AM by 1032004

[ironmonkey]

You can't compare better wrestlers to worse wrestlers and use it as evidence of anything style related in mma.  It's  biased. 

 

As some others pointed out, lots of folkstylers have had success. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Masonbuckeye]

On 8/10/2024 at 4:57 PM, MJD said:

I think college and high school should transition to freestyle. Most college sports feed fairly seemlessly into their international or professional equivalents (baseball, basketball, football, etc). Folkstyle wrestling is a dead-end after college. It goes nowhere. Think about it: It's not until most US wrestlers are 23 or 24 that they can finally work full-time on freestyle. That's too late. After all that hard work, if their bodies are even still healthy, they have to make a risky switch of styles to keep competing. That's ridiculous. 

What if the world just transitioned to folkstyle

[billyhoyle]

17 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Cool list.  Apologize for any typos I am typing on my iPhone.  
 

Hwt

- Mark coleman
- Sir randy couture (several times)
- Kevin randleman
- Josh barnett
- Ricco rodriguez
- Mr brock Lesnar
- Shane carwin
- Cain valesquez (multiple times)
- Daniel cormeir

Light hwt

- Tito Ortiz
- Frank shamrock
- Couture (twice)
- Chuck liddell
- Rashad evans
- Jon jones
- Cormeir (multiple? I think)
- Jon jones

Middleweight

- Evan tanner
- Chris Weidman
- Rob whitaker
- Georges st pierre

Welterweight

- Pat miletich (big time coach)
- Matt hughes (multiple times)
- Johnny Hendricks
- Robbie lawler
- Tyron Woodley
- Colby Covington

Lightweight

·     Sean sherk

From raw numbers of course there will be more folkstyle wrestlers- because Americans wrestle Folkstyle and U.S. wrestlers have been a significant percentage of MMA fighters. As more Russians are entering UFC, it is becoming more clear that freestyle is the better style for MMA. It's not a coincidence that despite the prevalence of folkstyle in the U.S., the most successful American wrestlers in UFC had a strong freestyle (Cormier, Cejudo) background.  Then when you factor in GSP and Khabib, I think it becomes pretty clear. 

 

 

[Caveira]

11 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

From raw numbers of course there will be more folkstyle wrestlers- because Americans wrestle Folkstyle and U.S. wrestlers have been a significant percentage of MMA fighters. As more Russians are entering UFC, it is becoming more clear that freestyle is the better style for MMA. It's not a coincidence that despite the prevalence of folkstyle in the U.S., the most successful American wrestlers in UFC had a strong freestyle (Cormier, Cejudo) background.  Then when you factor in GSP and Khabib, I think it becomes pretty clear. 

 

 

I think it becomes pretty clear that folkstyle wrestlers have the best base for mma.  We’re are the Iranians.  Russians.  Cubans.  You will have a few sure.   Romero …. Khabib.   Others.  But the list is dominated by folkstyle.  
 

top of the kingdom $ wise.  You making more money wrestling in the Olympics or being a multiple time mma champ.  
 

again.  Can’t make the argument it’s to hard to transition to free with a folk background.  Who mentioned muscle memory.  Who tells mma guys to stop locking hands on top?   These guys remember they can not lock hands and kick teeth in and our us guys this year training multiple years / months have muscle memory issues.   The argument is meh.   
 

 

Edited Monday at 12:59 AM by Caveira

[alliseeisgold]

How much would you pay to see folkstyle retherford vs the Iranian that crushed him. The Iranian is strong as an ox...I think he rides zain.

If USA is going to have folk...it takes much of its luster away knowing we all prbly suck at folk and it's like what are we cheering for ? A rich guy needs to put up a prize tourney to engage internationals to give folk a go for entertainment. 

Sanctioning it as a style like swimming would be great. How about an "all around" medal for ability to wrestle all 3 styles. 6 minutes is much too short for an anticipated bout....combining all styles would be nice. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

32 minutes ago, billyhoyle said:

From raw numbers of course there will be more folkstyle wrestlers- because Americans wrestle Folkstyle and U.S. wrestlers have been a significant percentage of MMA fighters. As more Russians are entering UFC, it is becoming more clear that freestyle is the better style for MMA. It's not a coincidence that despite the prevalence of folkstyle in the U.S., the most successful American wrestlers in UFC had a strong freestyle (Cormier, Cejudo) background.  Then when you factor in GSP and Khabib, I think it becomes pretty clear. 

 

 

Can you give me freestyle results for GSP or Khabib?