Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted December 22, 2022 Share Posted December 22, 2022 6 minutes ago, Eagle26 said: My thoughts exactly… I generally never support splitting a major award like the hodge. However, if they were ever going to do it, it should’ve been Nickal and Nolf’s senior year. Teammates with almost identical stats… that’s the one year I think it should’ve been split. How about the year Emmit Wilson won it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 36 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: How about the year Emmit Wilson won it? Who would you propose should have won it or shared it that year (2004)? Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: Who would you propose should have won it or shared it that year (2004)? Any one of the ten champs who wrestled a D1 schedule that year. Can you list two champs who Wilson had a tougher schedule than? Edited December 23, 2022 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nittanychris Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 Past credentials is just ONE criteria out of seven. It shouldn’t guarantee Lee anything because if he wrestles a limited schedule he’ll be trailing in other criteria such as record, number of pins, etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 Just now, Nittanychris said: Past credentials is just ONE criteria out of seven. It shouldn’t guarantee Lee anything because if he wrestles a limited schedule he’ll be trailing in other criteria such as record, number of pins, etc. If he has half a schedule, he will likely still have more bonus points than almost anyone else. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 1 minute ago, Nittanychris said: Past credentials is just ONE criteria out of seven. It shouldn’t guarantee Lee anything because if he wrestles a limited schedule he’ll be trailing in other criteria such as record, number of pins, etc. How about "heart?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. PeanutButter Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 13 hours ago, Fadzaev2 said: I think the poster you quoted was actually referring to me... And they had a good point. I had a brain fart and completely forgot about the year Cael won a co-hodge. That was before I followed wrestling. In my defense, I was still but a child 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1032004 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 I have to agree in part with Jimmy here. Lee probably wins even if he doesn’t wrestle until B10’s. But I think he needs a good bonus rate at B10’s and NCAA’s, not what we saw against ISU. However, I highly doubt Yianni wins unless no one is undefeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 18 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: Any one of the ten champs who wrestled a D1 schedule that year. Can you list two champs who Wilson had a tougher schedule than? I don't need to. I didn't suggest he wasn't deserving. And your generic response suggeats you can't support your claim either. Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadzaev2 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 11 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said: I think the poster you quoted was actually referring to me... And they had a good point. I had a brain fart and completely forgot about the year Cael won a co-hodge. That was before I followed wrestling. In my defense, I was still but a child It's all good....your favorite peanut butter...Jif, Skippy???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle26 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: How about the year Emmit Wilson won it? Didn’t really follow back then, but I don’t think anyone who isn’t D1 should be eligible for the award. I know that probably sounds harsh, but this award is about being the best of the best. If you are choosing to not compete against the best, you should be ok with not winning the most prestigious award. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 17 minutes ago, Eagle26 said: Didn’t really follow back then, but I don’t think anyone who isn’t D1 should be eligible for the award. I know that probably sounds harsh, but this award is about being the best of the best. If you are choosing to not compete against the best, you should be ok with not winning the most prestigious award. Didn't he win Midlands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreatWhiteNorth Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 1 hour ago, Eagle26 said: Didn’t really follow back then... Unless you want to be ignorant and to post with a lack of knowledge. Maybe you should follow and consider what happened back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 (edited) 7 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said: I don't need to. I didn't suggest he wasn't deserving. And your generic response suggeats you can't support your claim either. https://nwhof.org/brackets/74 Here are a bunch. I don't have their records for the season handy, but they put it on the line more often than the NAIA guy. That counts for something. Edited December 23, 2022 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle26 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 6 hours ago, ionel said: Didn't he win Midlands? Great accomplishment, but it’s not the “best of the best” for folkstyle wrestling… that would be D1 nationals. I would fully support allowing D2, D3, NAIA, Etc. Back in the D1 tournament. I’m not trying to bash those programs. We need them. I’m just saying in my mind it’s hard to justify giving someone the hodge without them going through a D1 schedule and winning D1 nationals (more on that below). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RYou Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 33 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: https://nwhof.org/brackets/74 Here are a bunch. I don't have their records for the season handy, but they put it on the line more often than the NAIA guy. That counts for something. Just an aside from the main topic..... could that be the last year the 10 champs were from 10 different universities? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle26 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 5 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said: Unless you want to be ignorant and to post with a lack of knowledge. Maybe you should follow and consider what happened back then. You are right I did post without knowing all the circumstances because I figured it would take some incredible, borderline impossible circumstances to justify it. But I will admit I probably shouldn’t have done that. Anyway, I did some research and I think it supports my claim. Here is WIN’s article for reference https://www.win-magazine.com/win-awards/hodge-trophy/emmett-willson-2004-hodge-trophy-winner/ Wilson had some very impressive wins no doubt, admittedly, much better than I expected. However, we don’t know for sure if he would’ve won D1 nationals. If Scott Moore had not gone to D1 nationals that year, he would’ve won the award. Furthermore, the article also points out 7 different wins over ranked D1 wrestlers. That’s impressive for sure! However, every single one was a regular decision. Then they say the reason he got it over Matt Gentry or Greg Jones (the only undefeated D1 champs) was because he had more pins. That doesn’t seem right to me knowing he didn’t have any bonus on the top D1 guys and then rewarding him for getting more pins. It’s just too tough to compare that to the grind of a D1 schedule when we say one loss eliminates you from the award. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 25 minutes ago, Eagle26 said: You are right I did post without knowing all the circumstances because I figured it would take some incredible, borderline impossible circumstances to justify it. But I will admit I probably shouldn’t have done that. Anyway, I did some research and I think it supports my claim. Here is WIN’s article for reference https://www.win-magazine.com/win-awards/hodge-trophy/emmett-willson-2004-hodge-trophy-winner/ Wilson had some very impressive wins no doubt, admittedly, much better than I expected. However, we don’t know for sure if he would’ve won D1 nationals. If Scott Moore had not gone to D1 nationals that year, he would’ve won the award. Furthermore, the article also points out 7 different wins over ranked D1 wrestlers. That’s impressive for sure! However, every single one was a regular decision. Then they say the reason he got it over Matt Gentry or Greg Jones (the only undefeated D1 champs) was because he had more pins. That doesn’t seem right to me knowing he didn’t have any bonus on the top D1 guys and then rewarding him for getting more pins. It’s just too tough to compare that to the grind of a D1 schedule when we say one loss eliminates you from the award. Exactly. What about Marcus Levasseur, wasn't he an undefeated D3 champ? How about the D3 kid currently on a 56 match win streak with 24 pins and techs and 100-0 takedown margin? Plenty of outstanding guys in lower divisions, but the Hodge should be an award for those who test themselves against the best, day in and day out. (Joe Dudek didn't win the Heisman, despite a famous SI article) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eagle26 said: You are right I did post without knowing all the circumstances because I figured it would take some incredible, borderline impossible circumstances to justify it. But I will admit I probably shouldn’t have done that. Anyway, I did some research and I think it supports my claim. Here is WIN’s article for reference https://www.win-magazine.com/win-awards/hodge-trophy/emmett-willson-2004-hodge-trophy-winner/ Wilson had some very impressive wins no doubt, admittedly, much better than I expected. However, we don’t know for sure if he would’ve won D1 nationals. If Scott Moore had not gone to D1 nationals that year, he would’ve won the award. Furthermore, the article also points out 7 different wins over ranked D1 wrestlers. That’s impressive for sure! However, every single one was a regular decision. Then they say the reason he got it over Matt Gentry or Greg Jones (the only undefeated D1 champs) was because he had more pins. That doesn’t seem right to me knowing he didn’t have any bonus on the top D1 guys and then rewarding him for getting more pins. It’s just too tough to compare that to the grind of a D1 schedule when we say one loss eliminates you from the award. Certainly very impressive stats for Wilson, but picking him over Jones and Gentry seems to be a reach. Scott Moore "would have won it" but lost in D1 semis, as previously stated. Wilson did not wrestle in the D1 tourney! Edited December 23, 2022 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fadzaev2 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 10 hours ago, Nittanychris said: Past credentials is just ONE criteria out of seven. It shouldn’t guarantee Lee anything because if he wrestles a limited schedule he’ll be trailing in other criteria such as record, number of pins, etc. I second that motion!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrestleknownothing Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 2 hours ago, RYou said: Just an aside from the main topic..... could that be the last year the 10 champs were from 10 different universities? It also happened in 2007 and 2009. 1 Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 (edited) 3 hours ago, Eagle26 said: Great accomplishment, but it’s not the “best of the best” for folkstyle wrestling… that would be D1 nationals. I would fully support allowing D2, D3, NAIA, Etc. Back in the D1 tournament. I’m not trying to bash those programs. We need them. I’m just saying in my mind it’s hard to justify giving someone the hodge without them going through a D1 schedule and winning D1 nationals (more on that below). Back in that day Mindlands brackets were sometimes harder than NCAA D1 tournament. Believe he won 3 tournaments against D1, wrestlers. Vegas was also a tough tournament then. Pretty sure he beat all the top guys in the NCAA bracket except Hahn. Hahn was at Vegas. Willson beat the guy at Midlands that beat Hahn at Vegas. The only thing one might argue is that he had a higher pin percentage outside of D1. But I bet the committee also looked at his pins against D1 for comparison, this was back when the followed the criteria and spirit of Hodge. The writeup on that year makes sense, not sure we'd say the same on this last "half hodge" year. Edited December 23, 2022 by ionel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interviewed_at_Weehawken Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 2 hours ago, ionel said: Back in that day Mindlands brackets were sometimes harder than NCAA D1 tournament. Believe he won 3 tournaments against D1, wrestlers. Vegas was also a tough tournament then. Pretty sure he beat all the top guys in the NCAA bracket except Hahn. Hahn was at Vegas. Willson beat the guy at Midlands that beat Hahn at Vegas. The only thing one might argue is that he had a higher pin percentage outside of D1. But I bet the committee also looked at his pins against D1 for comparison, this was back when the followed the criteria and spirit of Hodge. The writeup on that year makes sense, not sure we'd say the same on this last "half hodge" year. So, if Scott Moore had been allowed to wrestle in NAIA that year, he would have won the Hodge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ionel Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 8 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said: So, if Scott Moore had been allowed to wrestle in NAIA that year, he would have won the Hodge? maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle26 Posted December 23, 2022 Share Posted December 23, 2022 3 hours ago, ionel said: Back in that day Mindlands brackets were sometimes harder than NCAA D1 tournament. Believe he won 3 tournaments against D1, wrestlers. Vegas was also a tough tournament then. Pretty sure he beat all the top guys in the NCAA bracket except Hahn. Hahn was at Vegas. Willson beat the guy at Midlands that beat Hahn at Vegas. The only thing one might argue is that he had a higher pin percentage outside of D1. But I bet the committee also looked at his pins against D1 for comparison, this was back when the followed the criteria and spirit of Hodge. The writeup on that year makes sense, not sure we'd say the same on this last "half hodge" year. The guy that beat Hahn in Vegas DNP at D1 NCAAs that year. Just because he had better wins during the season doesn’t mean he would’ve come out on top at NCAAs. We’ve seen so many crazy things happen at NCAAs…many of which ruin peoples chances at the hodge. I just don’t think it’s fair to give it to someone who didn’t go to the biggest tournament… that’s my humble opinion. I can understand the case for Wilson… he just wouldn’t have gotten my vote. He did get the votes that counted though so I’m not going to belabor the point 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Carlin Burnt Hills-Ballston Lake, New York Class of 2025 Committed to Penn Projected Weight: 149, 157
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