Rank the 4xers

[Eagle26]

I agree that the stat on Dake winning 4 different weights is more of a neat trivia question rather than something that bolsters his argument. But the fact that he won as a TRUE freshman is huge. That and owning David Taylor who is one of our all time greats easily puts him right behind Cael. 

Edited March 25 by Eagle26

[MidniteToka]

10 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

People talk about this a lot and it seems like a very odd thing to give a wrestler credit for putting on weight.  It’s not like he did it all after the age of 25 when he was done growing.

FAR more impressive to me is that Dake did it entirely on his own.  There was nobody in his room on his level, and his mind and mental approach were the entire catalyst and motivating factor for all of it.  He doesn’t have any older brothers who beat the daylights out of him when he was young to get him good, it all just came from inside him and happened in his own mind.  That is a very special thing to be able to do.

Dad was a pretty good wrestler.

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree that the stat on Dake winning 4 different weights is more of a neat trivia question rather than something that bolsters his argument. By the fact that he won as a TRUE freshman is huge. That and owning David Taylor who is one of our all time greats easily puts him right behind Cael. 

Yup, owning Taylor is the most impressive thing.  Much more so than 4 different weights or winning as a true freshman.

[Eagle26]

1 hour ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

With the additions of Carter and Brooks to the 4X club let's see your new ranking of 4X champs.

 

1. Cael Sanderson - Undefeated 159-0. No question here.

2. Kyle Dake - Won as a true freshman and did it in four weight classes. He finished 137-4.

3. Pat Smith - First guy to do it. That means something to me. He finished 121-5-2

4. Carter Starocci - He had to win his fourth title on one leg and went through two previous champs. He was unbeatable after his freshman year. He finished his career 93-4.

5. - Aaron Brooks. He moved up to 197lbs for his fourth and was absolutely dominant with nobody even close. Finished his career 89-3.

6. Yianni Diakomihalis. This was tough between him and Brooks. He had one less loss but the deciding factor for me is that he was not as dominant as Brooks his final year when he should be at the his best. The loss he took to Gomez in his final year was the tiebreaker for me.

7. Logan Steiber. He was obviously great but the finals against Oliver weighed heavily here for me. He finished his career 119-3.

 

After Cael and Dake I really think it's splitting hairs with the rest of the guys if I am being honest. You could move those guys around and I wouldn't have any real objection.

I totally agree that it’s 1. Cael, 2. Dake, and then splitting hairs. Yes Steiber probably should’ve lost to Oliver but he also probably had the toughest competition and was 119-3, so you can make a pretty good argument for him. Pat smith was before my time, so it’s hard for me to say where he falls. I would give him extra credit for being the first, but he does have the most losses of the group. 

[wrestle87]

5 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

This seems to be giving no credit to the Cornell room, his RTC or any of his other training partners.  I'm sure it wasn't Dake rolling with a bunch of newbies for 4 years.

I hear you, but I also think he is what made the RTC, didn’t they start the RTC for him?

Having watched all the documentaries, watching him absolutely own david taylor, and then listing to them talk shop on technique, it always seemed to me that he technically was worlds ahead of pretty much every except Cael.

Also, the old Koll quip about Kyle “Moonbeam” Dake and Kyle’s gonna do what Kyle’s gonna do, I think speaks to the gap between Kyle and the rest of the Cornell room at that time.  There is a major gap between the best guys in that room, who were still very good by most standards, and what Kyle brought/brings mentally.  

4 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

Dake does speak a lot about Gabe Dean being his guy in the room, which is wild because he was 184 lbs. So, I think he had adequate competition, just not something he can replicate on the mat since Dean was so much bigger. 

I do agree that Dake needs to be near the top, he's the only one to actually do hit his true freshman through actual senior years (no Covid year, no redshirts). 

He does, and I know Gabe did heroes work for Dake’s international career, but I thought Gabe didn’t show up until 2014, after Dake already finished his run.

But I hear you, maybe he was rolling with Bosak most of the time.

[Pinnacle]

Brooks almost beat Amine? He actually did beat Amine. 

[Antitroll2828]

16 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

I forgot about Keckeisen, you're right there. Myles Amine never won a title. Who else did Brooks beat on the way that has a title?

Logan Stieber took out: Tony Ramos, Kendrick Maple, Jordan Oliver, Zain Retherford... 

amine was an Olympic medalist already when they wrestled, his only loses his final 4 years were Hall, Zahid, Brooks and Ferrari.  . He just teched 4x AA Elam and pinned now 2x 3rd place finisher Buchanan in the 1st period , those 2 are the mostly the favorites at 197 going into next season 

[Antitroll2828]

1 minute ago, Pinnacle said:

Brooks almost beat Amine? He actually did beat Amine. 

I edited that like an hr ago it was autocorrect 

[WrestlingRash]

when Starocci wins his 5th next year, is he at the top of the list?

[Rassling]

1 hour ago, Elevator said:

Meh - do not see the allure.  Some guys grow more during their careers than others - but winning title does not get progressively tougher as the weigh class goes up.  Dake was never particularly small for the weight as I recall - to the contrary he almost always was among the strongest and full sized for the weights.  But my memory may not be perfect on this.

Elevator have you ever wrestled? Ever wrestle at a weight that wasn’t your natural weight? I have and it’s difficult to perform at a weight not natural to you. One weight class jump is one thing but to succeed at 4 at the highest level is down right spectacular. It’s a free country and a relatively free spirited forum with much flexibility to voice our opinions but some of the responses to Dake on this tread are down right idiotic. 

Edited March 25 by Rassling

[JimmyCinnabon]

1 hour ago, pokemonster said:

True, but everyone is dropping Logan down the list due to astericks such as his final with JO, who was an all-time great. Also because he lost to Zain, another all-time great when he had the flu.

The best person Brooks ever faced in college was Trent Hidlay, who got 4th place behind Kaleb Romero just last year. Just throwing more asterisks in since they seem to be valid in this argument. 

I certainly don't hold it against Steiber for losing to Zain. Even freshman Zain was super good. When dealing with the 4Xers it's just so hard to find a reason to rank one guy above another outside of Cael. You could even argue that Dake lost the second most matches of all the 4Xers so he should be ranked lower. Again, it's splitting hairs outside of the 159-0 guy. Everyone is going to have a different small detail they use to justify their order. 

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

6 minutes ago, Rassling said:

Elevator have you ever wrestled? Ever wrestle at a weight that wasn’t your natural weight? I have and it’s difficult to perform at a weight not natural to you. One weight class jump is one thing but to succeed at 4 at the highest level is down right spectacular. It’s a free country and a relatively free spirited forum with much flexibility to voice our opinions but some of the responses to this tread are down right idiotic. 

What evidence is there that Dake wasn't at his natural weight?  He grew throughout his 4 years of college and hence bumped up weight classes.  It's not like he shrunk down to his "natural" weight after he finished competing in college.  He wrestled the optimal weight for his body as he grew.

Edited March 25 by Jimmy Cinnabon

[Rassling]

5 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

What evidence is there that Dake wasn't at his natural weight?  He grew throughout his 4 years of college and hence bumped up weight classes.  It's not like he shrunk down to his "natural" weight after he finished competing in college.  He wrestled the optimal weight for his body as he grew.

Sorry JC I respect your contributions here but even you fail to recognize just how unique and special this is. It will never happen again, even in your life time chief.  “Bet” on it. 

Edited March 25 by Rassling

[JimmyCinnabon]

18 minutes ago, WrestlingRash said:

when Starocci wins his 5th next year, is he at the top of the list?

I don't think Carter being a 5X champ would change where I rank him. Frankly I do not see it as a bigger accomplishment than being a 4Xer. Does anything think any of the other 4Xers would have failed to secure a 5th title if they were given the opportunity? Outside of some extenuating circumstance such as a major injury or illness I believe every 4Xer would win a 5th if they had an extra year of eligibility. 

 

EDIT - I will say that I do not believe Carter is coming back but if he did and he wins he will be the greatest 5X champ ever. No cap.

Edited March 25 by JimmyCinnabon

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Just now, Rassling said:

Sorry JC I respect your contributions here but even you fail to recognize just how unique and special this is. It will never happen again, even in your life time chief. Book it.

What will never happen again? I'm a Penn State fan and I think someone else will have a 4x undefeated career just like Cael.  I certainly think someone else can win 4x titles at 4 weights (especially since there's no requirement to be undefeated).

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Just now, JimmyCinnabon said:

I don't think Carter being a 5X champ would change where I rank him. Frankly I do not see it as a bigger accomplishment than being a 4Xer. Does anything think any of the other 4Xers would have failed to secure a 5th title if they were given the opportunity? Outside of some extenuating circumstance such as a major injury or illness I believe every 4Xer would win a 5th if they had an extra year of eligibility. 

And this is why Carter is probably not coming back.  He shares the view that 5 is not that special since 4xers would also have won title 5.

[Crotalus]

The #1 ranked 4 timer I’m my opinion is Kyle Dale because he won 4 times in 4 different weigh classes. I don’t believe that will ever happen again, at least in my life time.

I don't believe we'll ever see another 159-0. Hell, if we ever get another 4x undefeated champ, they may not break 100 wins. The way wrestling is going now, undefeated seasons are not as impressive as they used to be. Around 40 matches used to be pretty typical for a season. This year, you had 4 guys finish undefeated with records of 31-0, 23-0, 22-0, 20-0 (the latter 3 PSU guys). I don't have a problem with it, but teams are picking and choosing their matches during the season and limiting big matchups until the postseason.

[Rassling]

Just now, Crotalus said:

, but teams are picking and choosing their matches during the season and limiting big matchups until the postseason.

This is one of the things I’ve really grown to hate about D1Wg. Take the 2 schools of thought on this and flush it down the toilet. If you earn the starting role on a D1 wrestling team, as a fan I expect your ass out there on the mat all the time every time if you’re healthy. 

[lu_alum]

1. Sanderson

2. Brooks

3. Dake 

4. Yianni

5. Starocci

6. Smith

7. Stieber

[PortaJohn]

2 hours ago, pokemonster said:

True, but everyone is dropping Logan down the list due to astericks such as his final with JO, who was an all-time great. Also because he lost to Zain, another all-time great when he had the flu.

The best person Brooks ever faced in college was Trent Hidlay, who got 4th place behind Kaleb Romero just last year. Just throwing more asterisks in since they seem to be valid in this argument. 

Amine is his best victory, Keck #2 (Parker was 2-1 vs Hidlay), Trent #3

Edited March 25 by PortaJohn

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Hidlay is really good.  Without Brooks he's probably a 2x NCAA champ with a Hodge (this year).  Brooks is just a better Hidlay than Hidlay.

Edited March 25 by Jimmy Cinnabon

[Ivan Stankowski]

1. Dake

2. Smith 

3. Stieber

4. Sanderson

5. Brooks

6. Yianni

7. Starocci 

[OMW]

1. Sanderson (undefeated)

2. Smith (1st to do it)

2a. Dake (for 3 consecutive seasons, the year after he won the wrestler he beat in the finals was an NCAA champ - and Montell Marion made another final a couple of years after losing to Dake their freshman year)

3...

 

[peanut]

There is a small group of wrestlers who won world/Olympic golds in the same year as an NCAA title — but none of them are four timers.

Of that group, Uetake may have the strongest argument for college GOAT. 

The group is Uetake, Kemp, Smith (x2), Neal, JB, Snyder, and Steveson.

Edited March 25 by peanut

[fishbane]

2 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree that the stat on Dake winning 4 different weights is more of a neat trivia question rather than something that bolsters his argument. But the fact that he won as a TRUE freshman is huge. That and owning David Taylor who is one of our all time greats easily puts him right behind Cael. 

Pat Smith and Yianni Diakomihalis also won as true freshmen.  Out of Dake, Smith and Diakomihalis, Smith was the only one to not lose after their freshman season.  So 3 of 7 did it and Smith is the only one with a real plausible argument that he "could have been an undefeated 4xer" with a redshirt.  

It is kind of crazy that OSU didn't redshirt Smith.  OSU had Jeff McAllister at the weight.  McAllister was the starter at the beginning of the season and after they pulled Smith's redshirt he transferred to Bakersfield between semesters.  At NCAAs McAllister was the 5 seed and would go on to finish 7th.  Conventional wisdom would say to redshirt Smith and wrestle McAllister since he was a top 4-8 guy.  With the probation yet to come, wrestling as a true freshman is what allowed Pat Smith to finish his career at OSU as a 4xer.