de4856 Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 Anyone have any idea on what is going on with our Greco team? Matt Lindland was let go and they brought in Ivan Ivanov and now I see that he has abruptly resigned. I wonder who can Team USA can bring in to lead this program.
Relentless133 Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 He was doing something a bit unethical. It's unfortunate because he likely could have had a nice impact on USA graco.
Theo Brixton Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 Looks like Timmy Hands isn't too happy about this. I have to imagine Ivanov wasn't getting the support he thought was required to make the team competitive. Probably an unpopular opinion but I think one of the reasons the US is sub-par in Greco overlaps with why we aren't good at Olympic lifting-- no state-sponsored "supplements" program. Greco is less dynamic than FS and strength is at an even greater premium. Pummeling, hand-fighting and par terre lifts all require immense strength. I sat near the Azeri GR team in Nur Sultan in 2019 and many looked like physical freaks for their weights. Our team does not. Greco is a fundamentally distinct sport from FS and folkstyle. It probably has more in common with Judo than folkstyle. For it to thrive, it needs high level clubs that recruit people with an aptitude for it (rather than just getting the 2nd-tier guys) and they should be specializing by the time they are in high school. There are some respectable clubs for Greco but not enough and most of these athletes are still competing in folkstyle/FS. 1
Theo Brixton Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 26 minutes ago, Relentless133 said: He was doing something a bit unethical. It's unfortunate because he likely could have had a nice impact on USA graco. ??? 1
MadMardigain Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 (edited) When USAGreco can’t even find the right way to support itself, it just make it harder for the fans to get into supporting it. Edited December 4, 2022 by MadMardigain
MPhillips Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 Perhaps the Bulgarian Bag is not America's bag...
Mike Parrish Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 The situation with greco seems intractable.
Cherkov Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 2022 Still didn't come close to medaling even with the best team banned from worlds. Lost their only serious medal threat, who quit the sport in his 20s. Nothing exciting at age group events. Lost a head coach and GM. Amos. He doesn't have the hours in greco but I'm not convinced that even by the time Amos is 30 and finally caught up to the internationals with reps and technique exposure, that he's athletically talented enough to beat the best 97s. 97 is pretty tier striated. Evloev, Aleksanjan, and Saravi are separated from the the field. And Amos is a mid to lower field wrestler.
Mike Parrish Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 Given what's going on in Russia right now, there ought to be some good greco coaches to be had on the open market... 1
Cherkov Posted December 4, 2022 Posted December 4, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mike Parrish said: Given what's going on in Russia right now, there ought to be some good greco coaches to be had on the open market... I think Russia's greco program is heavily involved with their military. Semenov is a soldier, as is Evloev, I think Emelin as well There is no greco version of Dagestan or Ossetia. 2
Mike Parrish Posted December 5, 2022 Posted December 5, 2022 21 hours ago, Cherkov said: I think Russia's greco program is heavily involved with their military. Semenov is a soldier, as is Evloev, I think Emelin as well There is no greco version of Dagestan or Ossetia. The Cubans seem to have figured it out. Perhaps USAW should fly to sunny Havana for a recruiting trip. 1
Mike Parrish Posted December 5, 2022 Posted December 5, 2022 Huh. Shuffling the chairs around a bit. https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2022/December/05/Herb-House-hired-as-Assistant-National-Coach
Cherkov Posted December 6, 2022 Posted December 6, 2022 10 hours ago, Mike Parrish said: The Cubans seem to have figured it out. Perhaps USAW should fly to sunny Havana for a recruiting trip. There is some naivety about what foreigners are and aren't. Just going overseas to "Europe" isn't necessarily exposing you to a higher plane of greco wrestling. Continental Europe for the most part has greco programs that aren't any discernibly higher in level than America, most are worse. I've noticed a Scandinavian and Bulgarian connection with Americans? But both those regions have fallen off cliffs greco wise. Bulgaria is a catastrophe compared to the Greco power they were decades ago and Scandinavia doesn't do any better than the US now. 1
Spladle08 Posted December 7, 2022 Posted December 7, 2022 Enjoyed this conversation. Hopefully we take some radical action to improve our results... But I can't see how it's possible without big changes at the youth level .
LJB Posted December 7, 2022 Posted December 7, 2022 On 12/5/2022 at 10:19 PM, Cherkov said: There is some naivety about what foreigners are and aren't. Just going overseas to "Europe" isn't necessarily exposing you to a higher plane of greco wrestling. Continental Europe for the most part has greco programs that aren't any discernibly higher in level than America, most are worse. I've noticed a Scandinavian and Bulgarian connection with Americans? But both those regions have fallen off cliffs greco wise. Bulgaria is a catastrophe compared to the Greco power they were decades ago and Scandinavia doesn't do any better than the US now. i am pleasantly surprised... it is rare to read a greco post that is knowledgeable, nuanced, and not total rubbish... **tip of the cap** the ivanov situation is interesting... i was super hopeful when he took that job... then some things happened that i was not impressed by even a little... i have no knowledge whether this was his decision or USAW's decision, but, it could have been either just as easily... he was not making friends within the program... the world team camps last summer were awful... lots of coaches alienated with little to no tact... the actual training was suspect at best... large number of athletes not impressed and not looking forward to repeating that training philosophy... and most importantly, the results were the exact same... i was willing to look past all that having had good experiences with ivanov personally and knowing how little USAW actually cares about greco... gotta shake things up... cause some waves... and if people are not happy then that is what was needed in the program... clearly, the hiring process for the OTC coach was the tipping point... i was not even a little impressed with how that has been handled... how some clearly qualified candidates were not even granted an interview... it was not encouraging in the least little bit... and some athletes were told not they were not allowed to train with particular coaches... i heard grumblings about the OTC being used as a "commercial" for side businesses'... blah, blah, blah... point being the fit was not great and a large number of the greco community were not unhappy with last weeks news... i would encourage everyone to read timmy hands full thoughts on the twitter verse... they could have come from me word for word... all the issues in the program still remain, but, as the eternal grumpy optimist i see things happening that are going to impact the program positively coming up... we have a coach back on the scene that is proven, highly motivated, and showing the best technique in the country and there is not even a close second... he has some outside financial support and they are doing some things that no one else is doing at the moment... and... as important right now, rulon is coming back for a very specific reason... he could very easily turn some heads at the open... https://www.instagram.com/p/Clh0ZbisJ6f/ 3
LJB Posted December 11, 2022 Posted December 11, 2022 I feel like exasperated is a decent description of the tone… https://www.fivepointmove.com/usa-greco/editorial-watching-dominoes-fall-forward-operating-base/ 3
Mike Parrish Posted December 12, 2022 Posted December 12, 2022 2 hours ago, LJB said: I feel like exasperated is a decent description of the tone… https://www.fivepointmove.com/usa-greco/editorial-watching-dominoes-fall-forward-operating-base/ Well, that was depressing.
MPhillips Posted December 12, 2022 Posted December 12, 2022 3 hours ago, LJB said: exasperated is a decent description of the tone… Indeed.
Theo Brixton Posted December 12, 2022 Posted December 12, 2022 3 hours ago, LJB said: I feel like exasperated is a decent description of the tone… https://www.fivepointmove.com/usa-greco/editorial-watching-dominoes-fall-forward-operating-base/ Don't worry, I'm sure they hired all of the necessary supplemental staff--just in case! I bet USAW management is mighty proud of MFS but where would it be without boosters supporting RTCs? We already know--mediocre. In order for greco to succeed you need to give support to the right athletes and have them specialize as early as possible. I have little doubt that if the US enticed a handful of athletes like Joel Adams to commit to greco every year that results would improve. Just really hard to do without the $$$.
Mike Parrish Posted December 12, 2022 Posted December 12, 2022 5 minutes ago, Theo Brixton said: Don't worry, I'm sure they hired all of the necessary supplemental staff--just in case! I bet USAW management is mighty proud of MFS but where would it be without boosters supporting RTCs? We already know--mediocre. In order for greco to succeed you need to give support to the right athletes and have them specialize as early as possible. I have little doubt that if the US enticed a handful of athletes like Joel Adams to commit to greco every year that results would improve. Just really hard to do without the $$$. Imagine how the women's team feels.... 1
Cherkov Posted December 12, 2022 Posted December 12, 2022 42 minutes ago, Theo Brixton said: Don't worry, I'm sure they hired all of the necessary supplemental staff--just in case! I bet USAW management is mighty proud of MFS but where would it be without boosters supporting RTCs? We already know--mediocre. In order for greco to succeed you need to give support to the right athletes and have them specialize as early as possible. I have little doubt that if the US enticed a handful of athletes like Joel Adams to commit to greco every year that results would improve. Just really hard to do without the $$$. I don't think it's fair to compare MFS to GR in the United States. MFS was winning gold medals in the 40s. It took until the 1980s for the first GR gold medal from an American. It's not that MFS is run by geniuses and Greco all by clowns, MFS has a massive in built advantage that Greco can't access the same way.
Theo Brixton Posted December 12, 2022 Posted December 12, 2022 1 minute ago, Cherkov said: I don't think it's fair to compare MFS to GR in the United States. MFS was winning gold medals in the 40s. It took until the 1980s for the first GR gold medal from an American. It's not that MFS is run by geniuses and Greco all by clowns, MFS has a massive in built advantage that Greco can't access the same way. I have no expectations that greco should be as successful as MFS but they can at least be respectable. No one denies that MFS has important advantages over greco. Despite these advantages, even MFS was mediocre in the 2000's with the decade preceding RTCs being one of the worst ever. In the 2010 worlds, I count 11 FS/10 GR medals for countries that would otherwise be part of the USSR (not even counting Russia). No doubt this made it more difficult for both styles to have success. Without resources similar to the RTC model, greco has been left behind. Sad to see Olympic success in the US is basically tied to the interests of college boosters. But that is where we appear to be.
BAC Posted December 13, 2022 Posted December 13, 2022 (edited) This thread is more than I've learned about the US Greco program in the last 5 years, and it still isn't much. Why is everyone so quiet? Certainly USA Wrestling should say more. They fire Lindland without explanation, then force out (I assume) Ivanov without explanation. Then they drop this doozy last week, buried in an article about Herb House: "At this time, the organization is not seeking a General Manager, Greco-Roman Programs, nor a National Greco-Roman Head Coach." See https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2022/December/05/Herb-House-hired-as-Assistant-National-Coach Why? They won't say. OK, so how about the wrestling media step up? Every single article I've seen about Lindland and Ivanov's departures merely states the fact of their leaving, and parrots the press releases -- without asking a single question, nor making a single observation, nor securing a single third-party comment. And as for the biggest Greco story of the year -- G'Angelo Hancock dropping out of Worlds just before it started, in purported "retirement" -- I'm aware of a single article (from flowrestling.com), and I couldn't help but laugh at Flo's penetrating expose: Hancock, 25, was only getting better. Now he’s gone. And no one seems to care. When was the last time a high-level athlete retired weeks before the biggest competition of the year? . . . . It just doesn’t happen. If it did, the media would analyze it for weeks. Bye-bye, G’Angelo. Hope you enjoyed your stay in Greco. See https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/7965845-gangelo-hancocks-departure-from-greco-left-many-questions That's Flo's hard-hitting piece: gee, how come the media isn't analyzing this. No interviews, no attempts to reach out to G'Angelo or any coaches or teammates or anyone at USA Wrestling for comment. Just "Bye-bye, G'Angelo." You'd think that flowrestling doesn't consider itself, you know... wrestling media. Apparently not, since they dropped the question just as quickly as they raised it. OK, so the media won't do its job -- TimmyHands excepted. But here we are, with a new forum, no longer under the thumb of USA Wrestling with its censor-button at the ready. I'm pretty sure Willie couldn't give a crap if people air USA Wrestling's dirty laundry here. Yet even with many of the posts here, while more than I knew before, are just so... cryptic. Doing something "a bit unethical"? What's that all about? What's with the constant coaching turnover, the sudden retirement, the refusal to hire a new head coach? I realize most commenters are as out-of-the-know as I am, but I'm sure there are also people in the know who read this. Make an account under a pseudonym and spill the beans. What's going on and how can it be fixed? I get that Greco has bigger problems than secrecy -- e.g. limited interest, limited exposure, minimal funding, USAW indifference. But if you're a bright young Greco prospect or his parent, and you see all these secretive behind-the-door machinations with no one talking -- the sort of stuff you see at a university right before it drops its wrestling program -- would you continue to pursue that interest or move to something else? Edited December 13, 2022 by BAC 6
LJB Posted December 13, 2022 Posted December 13, 2022 i have started several replies that i have scrapped for various reasons... mostly because a bunch of old guys whining on a forum does nothing to help... absolutely nothing... what is even more horrifying is that speaking to people involved in the program does not seem to have any affect either... personally, i am about ready to wash my hands of USAW... any guesses on how many in the greco program feel that exact way? this hiring process for the OTC coach feels like the last straw... i could spit out 2 names that were not even granted an interview that would make your head swim... form letters were sent out in response to their applications... we are talking about world and olympic medalists... there are not many of those in US greco, so, anyone could make some pretty decent guesses and would be right on almost all of them... again... i have no "inside" info on why ivanov "resigned" but clearly USAW and he were not seeing eye to eye on how he was conducting the search for a new coach... did he throw up his hands and tell them to kick rocks because they were meddling in his job? possibly... did USAW throw up their hands because ivanov was going off the reservation and doing some things that did not fit in with their "just barely support greco enough so we can say we are supporting greco" and (more importantly) don't cause waves and just show up and keep the machine limping along? possibly... either way, the events of the last couple of weeks, last year, last quad, last whatever are not being learned from at all... it is still a bunch of little kingdoms warring with each other over whatever scraps are thrown out the back door... the cattiness that goes on is similar to what anyone can witness on a daily basis on these forums... the comments i heard (secondhand) made by a coach at the camp this week made me want to punch a baby... they were in regards to one of our senior world team members... the lack of support and commitment was a little shocking... based off of the one conversation i have had with this coach, i was not surprised per se, but, still incredibly disappointing... so... what does someone who truly loves greco do now? well... some do their own thing... results vary... 1
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