Does Yianni finish with more NCAA titles than bonus points?

[Crotalus]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Two different criteria. Yianni is more dominant in the regular season than Dake was and Dake was more dominant at the NCAA tournament than Yianni has been. 

That said, lack of dominance is a bad description to give to a three (probably four) timer when the point of the exercise is to become a three (probably four) timer.

I agree. I think winning 4 titles puts you amongst the most dominant college wrestlers ever, bonus points or not. But I found it ironic to argue that Dake was more dominant than he is given credit for using a data point that shows he was less dominant than Yianni in a thread that was knocking Yianni's lack of dominance.

[Wrestleknownothing]

25 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

I agree. I think winning 4 titles puts you amongst the most dominant college wrestlers ever, bonus points or not. But I found it ironic to argue that Dake was more dominant than he is given credit for using a data point that shows he was less dominant than Yianni in a thread that was knocking Yianni's lack of dominance.

To be clear, I am not knocking Yianni's lack of dominance, I am pointing out how unique his dominance is.

[Brooklyn Dodger]

Here is a chart showing Dake, Yianni and Spencer Lee in their tournament bouts. No surprise that Lee has the most bonus wins, but Dake and Yianni faced more AAs (that is AAs from they year the champs beat them) along the way. Dake also had one pin than Lee, not even counting his senior year, which Lee has not had yet and when Dake had no pins. Both Dake and Yianni had a fair number of close wins.

[Wrestleknownothing]

7 minutes ago, Brooklyn Dodger said:

Here is a chart showing Dake, Yianni and Spencer Lee in their tournament bouts. No surprise that Lee has the most bonus wins, but Dake and Yianni faced more AAs (that is AAs from they year the champs beat them) along the way. Dake also had one pin than Lee, not even counting his senior year, which Lee has not had yet and when Dake had no pins. Both Dake and Yianni had a fair number of close wins.

I didn't go through everything, but it looks like you are missing some AAs for at least Lee and Diakomihalis. I think Lee has wrestled 9 AAs and Diakomihalis 10. For example, Josh Heil is a two time champ, but you do not have him listed as an AA. And Chad Red is a 4 time AA (some say 3, but they bore me). And Zach Sherman is a 1 time AA.

[VakAttack]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I didn't go through everything, but it looks like you are missing some AAs for at least Lee and Diakomihalis. I think Lee has wrestled 9 AAs and Diakomihalis 10. For example, Josh Heil is a two time champ, but you do not have him listed as an AA. And Chad Red is a 4 time AA (some say 3, but they bore me). And Zach Sherman is a 1 time AA.

He has limited his pool of AAs to people who were AAs the year they were beaten.

[ionel]

1 minute ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I didn't go through everything, but it looks like you are missing some AAs for at least Lee and Diakomihalis. I think Lee has wrestled 9 AAs and Diakomihalis 10. For example, Josh Heil is a two time champ, but you do not have him listed as an AA. And Chad Red is a 4 time AA (some say 3, but they bore me). And Zach Sherman is a 1 time AA.

getting kind've picky 

[Brooklyn Dodger]

17 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I didn't go through everything, but it looks like you are missing some AAs for at least Lee and Diakomihalis. I think Lee has wrestled 9 AAs and Diakomihalis 10. For example, Josh Heil is a two time champ, but you do not have him listed as an AA. And Chad Red is a 4 time AA (some say 3, but they bore me). And Zach Sherman is a 1 time AA.

I list AAs only if they were an AA in the year they faced the champ. Dean Heil (not Josh) was a 2X champ, but did not AA in the year he lost to Yianni. Also, Heil had 7 losses that year and dropped to a 6 seed. IIRC they changed the rules to limit a wrestlers ability to wrestle from his back. That rule change really hurt Heil (and may have been eancted with Heil in mind). After he lost to Yianni he was pinned in the first period by Red. This is a good example of why it makes sense only to count AAs who earned that status in the year in question.

Edited October 31, 2022 by Brooklyn Dodger

[Wrestleknownothing]

7 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

He has limited his pool of AAs to people who were AAs the year they were beaten.

Red was an AA 2019

[Brooklyn Dodger]

4 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Red was an AA 2019

True, he placed 8th. Missed that.

[Wrestleknownothing]

I feel a need to further clarify my intent here.

I want Yianni Diakomihalis to win a fourth title, because I want there to be beautiful things in the world. And winning four titles would be beautiful. I also want Spencer Lee to win a fourth title for the same reason, and because two four timers in the same year would double the beauty. (And Fix with a fourth second would not be displeasing from a symmetry perspective).

But there is also a part of me that wants Yianni to win all of his matches by a single point, and not because he is not dominant. No, I want him to win by a single point to prove his dominance. He can call the score before each match, and then demonstrate complete mastery and control by delivering that exact score each time. His opponents' will and desires will be irrelevant. That would be a Uetake level of dominance, and who would not celebrate that?

[Bulwark]

2 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

I feel a need to further clarify my intent here.

I want Yianni Diakomihalis to win a fourth title, because I want there to be beautiful things in the world. And winning four titles would be beautiful. I also want Spencer Lee to win a fourth title for the same reason, and because two four timers in the same year would double the beauty. (And Fix with a fourth second would not be displeasing from a symmetry perspective).

But there is also a part of me that wants Yianni to win all of his matches by a single point, and not because he is not dominant. No, I want him to win by a single point to prove his dominance. He can call the score before each match, and then demonstrate complete mastery and control by delivering that exact score each time. His opponents' will and desires will be irrelevant. That would be a Uetake level of dominance, and who would not celebrate that?

That's interesting: You drag Yianni down and then "further clarify" that your "intent" is to cheer for him. Nice.

BTW, among the 4-timers, is Yianni the only one who won a world medal while still in college. Granted he extended college quite a bit, but still.

[ionel]

7 minutes ago, Bulwark said:

That's interesting: You drag Yianni down and then "further clarify" that your "intent" is to cheer for him. Nice.

BTW, among the 4-timers, is Yianni the only one who won a world medal while still in college. Granted he extended college quite a bit, but still.

Yianni is a 4-timer? 

[MPhillips]

15 minutes ago, Bulwark said:

That's interesting: You drag Yianni down ...

I don't believe that's wkn's M.O...

Edited November 1, 2022 by MPhillips

[Wrestleknownothing]

18 minutes ago, Bulwark said:

That's interesting: You drag Yianni down and then "further clarify" that your "intent" is to cheer for him. Nice.

BTW, among the 4-timers, is Yianni the only one who won a world medal while still in college. Granted he extended college quite a bit, but still.

I love numbers. And when you love numbers, you also love outliers. Yianni is absolutely, 100% an outlier. You can believe my motives, or not. But, it doesn't make Yianni's situation any less interesting.

[Bulwark]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

Yianni is a 4-timer? 

Right, not yet. But we all assume, don't we?

 

[Red95]

5 hours ago, Brooklyn Dodger said:

I list AAs only if they were an AA in the year they faced the champ. Dean Heil (not Josh) was a 2X champ, but did not AA in the year he lost to Yianni. Also, Heil had 7 losses that year and dropped to a 6 seed. IIRC they changed the rules to limit a wrestlers ability to wrestle from his back. That rule change really hurt Heil (and may have been eancted with Heil in mind). After he lost to Yianni he was pinned in the first period by Red. This is a good example of why it makes sense only to count AAs who earned that status in the year in question.

 

54 minutes ago, Bulwark said:

Right, not yet. But we all assume, don't we?

 

Very few guys have even had a shot at 4x (winning their first 3yrs). Has anyone who had a chance at a 4th title failed to do so? (I feel like I should know this but…)

[ionel]

4 minutes ago, Red95 said:

 

Very few guys have even had a shot at 4x (winning their first 3yrs). Has anyone who had a chance at a 4th title failed to do so? (I feel like I should know this but…)

Hutton was undefeated thru semi final of his 3rd (Jr yr) lost by tie RD in finals then won out to win 3rd in Sr year.  Not exactly what you meant but he would've been 4x and undefeated if not for the RD.  Of course as Wkn would point out, he had other close matches.

[Bulwark]

17 minutes ago, Red95 said:

 

Very few guys have even had a shot at 4x (winning their first 3yrs). Has anyone who had a chance at a 4th title failed to do so? (I feel like I should know this but…)

I am gonna say no. I, too, am not sure, but ... I believe there are around 40 three-time champs, but none who lost in their senior year. If it had happened, it would be famous--like Gable losing his senior year (though in Gable's era, three titles was the max.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

20 minutes ago, Bulwark said:

I am gonna say no. I, too, am not sure, but ... I believe there are around 40 three-time champs, but none who lost in their senior year. If it had happened, it would be famous--like Gable losing his senior year (though in Gable's era, three titles was the max.

 

There have been 30 wrestlers to win 3 out of 4. None lost the chance at four titles their senior year.

Three did lose their attempt for four in their junior year. The aforementioned Dick Hutton was first, followed by Ed Banach, and Lincoln McIlravy. They each lost in the final their junior year to go 1, 1, 2, 1.

[Wrestleknownothing]

There are also 20 who went 3 for 3 during the no-freshman eligibility eras.