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Does Yianni finish with more NCAA titles than bonus points?

Wrestleknownothing

By Wrestleknownothing
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Yianni's NCAA tourney bonus points  

11 members have voted

  1. 1. I am setting the over/under at 1.6. What have you got?

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    • Under
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Wrestleknownothing Big Brain

Wrestleknownothing

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Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 2:30 AM, Hammerlock3 said:

On a related note, placement points should be cut in half.

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I disagree. That would increase the relative value of bonus points and back side advancement points (and yes, front side advancement points too).  Without looking it up, I assume most bonus points per match are scored in the early rounds, aka the easiest matches.

But the point of the exercise is to win five. That should always outweigh the manner in which you win them.

Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge

BigRedFan NCAA All-American

BigRedFan

Posted
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  On 10/31/2022 at 2:23 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

In three tournaments Yianni Diakomihalis has scored an almost incomprehensible two total bonus points.

Does he get more titles than bonus points for his career?

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It becomes comprehensible when you look at the incomprehensible number of AAs he's had to face (a total of 25 AAs in three tournaments.  Compare to Spencer Lee with 18).  I looked it up some time ago.  That, and the fact that nobody this past tournament actually wrestled to try to beat him.

This year will be different.

("almost is a synonym for 'not'")

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Brooklyn Dodger Novice

Brooklyn Dodger

Posted
Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 3:00 AM, BigRedFan said:

It becomes comprehensible when you look at the incomprehensible number of AAs he's had to face (a total of 25 AAs in three tournaments.  Compare to Spencer Lee with 18).  I looked it up some time ago.  That, and the fact that nobody this past tournament actually wrestled to try to beat him.

This year will be different.

("almost is a synonym for 'not'")

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How could he have faced 25 in three tournaments when he only had 15 matches in those three tournaments? How, BTW, could Spencer have faced 18? Are you counting a 2X AA as two AAs?

BigRedFan NCAA All-American

BigRedFan

Posted
Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 3:21 AM, Brooklyn Dodger said:

Are you counting a 2X AA as two AAs?

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Yes.  For instance, his sophomore year he faced four opponents who had each been or would become AAs.  One with one AA, two with three AAs, and one with four AAs.  This is for a #1 seed in the tournament.  As a freshman, it was 3, 4, and 3.  Crazy.

Brooklyn Dodger Novice

Brooklyn Dodger

Posted
Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 3:32 AM, BigRedFan said:

Yes.  For instance, his sophomore year he faced four opponents who had each been or would become AAs.  One with one AA, two with three AAs, and one with four AAs.  This is for a #1 seed in the tournament.  As a freshman, it was 3, 4, and 3.  Crazy.

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It would make more sense to count the number of AAs (as in people) he faced than AAs (as in total placements). For instance, he faced Dean Heil when Heil was a 2X champ and maybe a 4X AA (if you count his whole career as opposed to his number of AAs when Yianni beat him). If you are trying to account for his lack of bonus pojnts it matters more how many guys he wrestled who never AAed.

Wrestleknownothing Big Brain

Wrestleknownothing

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  On 10/31/2022 at 3:00 AM, BigRedFan said:

It becomes comprehensible when you look at the incomprehensible number of AAs he's had to face (a total of 25 AAs in three tournaments.  Compare to Spencer Lee with 18).  I looked it up some time ago.  That, and the fact that nobody this past tournament actually wrestled to try to beat him.

This year will be different.

("almost is a synonym for 'not'")

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Fine, let's use your framework.

How many bonus points has Yianni Diakomihalis scored against AAs? Zero.

How many has Spencer Lee scored against AAs? 7.

And Yianni has had more opportunities (10 vs 9).

No matter how you split it 2 bonus points in 15 NCAA matches is historically low.

Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge

Wrestleknownothing Big Brain

Wrestleknownothing

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Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 3:49 AM, Brooklyn Dodger said:

Yianni is more a winner than a pinner. That's indisputable. But so what?

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I find it fascinating that he has fewer bonus points than NCAA titles. That in no way minimizes his three titles. And he has to be a very large favorite to win a fourth, but the fact is he is doing it in a way that no one else ever has.

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Brooklyn Dodger Novice

Brooklyn Dodger

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 10/31/2022 at 4:02 AM, Brooklyn Dodger said:

surprising if true. I recall a lot of close matches.

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Here is a chart of Dake's NCAA matches, scores and whether the opponent was an AA in that year (not any any time in his career).

I see Dake with 10 majors and 10 wins over AAs. He also had 6 close matches (defined as 3 points or less)

 

image.png.678f1d2db01d8dfc90f9025cab505e3c.png

Edited by Brooklyn Dodger
BigRedFan NCAA All-American

BigRedFan

Posted
Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 4:02 AM, Brooklyn Dodger said:

surprising if true. I recall a lot of close matches.

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A lot of people are under that misunderstanding.  Dake had 83 bonus wins in his career, including 44 pins, and a dominance ranking of 4.1 (compared to Yianni's 4.3).  28 bonus wins his senior year, including 18 pins.

BigRedFan NCAA All-American

BigRedFan

Posted
Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 3:44 AM, Brooklyn Dodger said:

It would make more sense to count the number of AAs (as in people) he faced than AAs (as in total placements). For instance, he faced Dean Heil when Heil was a 2X champ and maybe a 4X AA (if you count his whole career as opposed to his number of AAs when Yianni beat him). If you are trying to account for his lack of bonus pojnts it matters more how many guys he wrestled who never AAed.

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If you go by that, Don Demas (4) counts as much as Eierman (2/3/4/5).  Counting total number of AA awards is a better indication of the quality of the opposition.  Yianni had six NCAA matches against opponents with three or four AAs; Lee had two.  Heck, his sophomore year, he had to beat Demas (4), Red (6/7/8), Eierman (2/3/4/5), and McKenna (2/3/3) as a #1 seed.

Brooklyn Dodger Novice

Brooklyn Dodger

Posted
Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 1:41 PM, BigRedFan said:

If you go by that, Don Demas (4) counts as much as Eierman (2/3/4/5).  Counting total number of AA awards is a better indication of the quality of the opposition.  Yianni had six NCAA matches against opponents with three or four AAs; Lee had two.  Heck, his sophomore year, he had to beat Demas (4), Red (6/7/8), Eierman (2/3/4/5), and McKenna (2/3/3) as a #1 seed.

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Could be. But it also could be a victor beat a future or past AA when he was not as good as her would be or not as good as he once was.

Brooklyn Dodger Novice

Brooklyn Dodger

Posted
Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 1:41 PM, BigRedFan said:

If you go by that, Don Demas (4) counts as much as Eierman (2/3/4/5).  Counting total number of AA awards is a better indication of the quality of the opposition.  Yianni had six NCAA matches against opponents with three or four AAs; Lee had two.  Heck, his sophomore year, he had to beat Demas (4), Red (6/7/8), Eierman (2/3/4/5), and McKenna (2/3/3) as a #1 seed.

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Soph year Dake was the #4 seed, not the #1 seed. That was the year he lost in the EIWAs. He also did not beat any of those guys that year.

NCAABrackets2011.pdfFetching info...

Crotalus College Starter

Crotalus

Posted
Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 1:10 PM, BigRedFan said:

A lot of people are under that misunderstanding.  Dake had 83 bonus wins in his career, including 44 pins, and a dominance ranking of 4.1 (compared to Yianni's 4.3).  28 bonus wins his senior year, including 18 pins.

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So Dake was less dominant than Yianni, who's lack of dominance is the impetus for this thread?

Wrestleknownothing Big Brain

Wrestleknownothing

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Posted
  On 10/31/2022 at 4:36 PM, Crotalus said:

So Dake was less dominant than Yianni, who's lack of dominance is the impetus for this thread?

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Two different criteria. Yianni is more dominant in the regular season than Dake was and Dake was more dominant at the NCAA tournament than Yianni has been. 

That said, lack of dominance is a bad description to give to a three (probably four) timer when the point of the exercise is to become a three (probably four) timer.

Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge

VakAttack Big Brain

VakAttack

Posted
Posted

Bonus points is a differentiator amongst relative peers, not the be all end all.  For example, using it as a tiebreaker of sorts between Yianni and Spencer if both win 4 (not that you have to favor bonus, just as what I perceive would be a fair tiebreaker).

You are a voice of reason. - @Paul158

Wrestleknownothing Big Brain

Wrestleknownothing

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I did some deeper digging.

In the ~32 man bracket era (1967 to present) there have been 135 wrestlers who have won multiple titles. Among those 135 only 2 have had fewer bonus points than titles.

  • Kurt Angle had 2 titles and only 1 bonus point (though there were not full wrestle backs his freshman year) between 1988 and 1992.
  • And Dean Heil did the deed, amassing 0 bonus points on the way to his 2 titles between 2015 and 2018.

Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge

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