Koll calling it like it is…

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 minutes ago, Idaho said:

This is a university wide effort, i.e  collective.... most school have them (if not all by now). Keep trying though. 

As a side note, this really isn't really an example of my question: "Post some examples about Stanford sports and them using NIL as an example of Stanford getting richer and being in contention for national titles as a result."

You clearly did not attend Stanford.  

Let me repeat: They have had less than a year with their collective.  It is too early to see how much the NIL money will help Stanford sports.  Give it a year or two.  They were behind everyone else.

I'm not even actively involved in this facet of the discussion, just bringing up a fact.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Idaho]

3 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I disagree.  People might choose Cornell over a Big 10 school, because of the Ivy status. Envision a Meyer Shapiro type recruit.  This recruit wants the Ivy degree and the network that comes with it, but also has ways around Ivy rules and admissions standards.  Therefore it clearly 'applies to more than the Ivies.'

You disagree with me agreeing with you... sounds good...but nope, they are getting  a redshirt just like every other wrestler outside of the Ivies. Their level of education doesn't matter... and if anything probably makes it a harder life in general to stay on top of things verses an Iowa for example. I also hear that Stanford, Penn and Cal Poly are pretty good degrees. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, Idaho said:

You disagree with me agreeing with you... sounds good...but nope, they are getting  a redshirt just like every other wrestler outside of the Ivies. Their level of education doesn't matter... and if anything probably makes it a harder life in general to stay on top of things verses an Iowa for example. I also hear that Stanford, Penn and Cal Poly are pretty good degrees. 

Good Ol' ID Dan!

[Idaho]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

You clearly did not attend Stanford.  

Let me repeat: They have had less than a year with their collective.  It is too early to see how much the NIL money will help Stanford sports.  Give it a year or two.  They were behind everyone else.

You clearly did not attend Clackamas Community College.... collectives are new to most universities. Oregon State put together a collective last summer but the university as whole did not really get it going until last fall with the DAM Nation Collective. 

[Idaho]

4 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Good Ol' ID Dan!

Great comeback?   Good Ol'....? Wait what was your name on the old board before we switched? As a side note, are you an Iowa guy? 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, Idaho said:

You clearly did not attend Clackamas Community College.... collectives are new to most universities. Oregon State put together a collective last summer but the university as whole did not really get it going until last fall with the DAM Nation Collective. 

So Dan, how much NIL money did the DAM use to win Oregon State athletes national titles?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Great comeback?   Good Ol'....? Wait what was your name on the old board before we switched? As a side note, are you an Iowa guy? 

 

This is the 4th time you have questioned me about my name was on the old board.  I find that a bit odd.  It is pretty much common knowledge, and I don't try to hide it.  I've actually had my old name in responses to you. Somehow you are strangely fixated on it.  Pretty weird.

I did not attend Iowa.  They are probably my second favorite current team, mostly because I was a fan of the Lee/Kem/Marnirelli/ etc. teams. I was a Lee fan, and the other guys grew on me.

Edited June 14, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Idaho]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

So Dan, how much NIL money did the DAM use to win Oregon State athletes national titles?

It actually makes more sense that you are NJ Dan now that I think about it.... hmmm... switched your name from the last board..... refuses to talk about what your last name was on the last board......whereas I have always been Idaho as everybody on this board knows. . Hmm... interesting reverse psychology try there. 

Anyway.... Yeah we don't have as many huge donors as a lot of schools.... and as far as wrestling we  have zero national titles in recent years....which is kind of the point in full circle.....

[Idaho]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

This is the 4th time you have questioned me about my name was on the old board.  I find that a bit odd.  It is pretty much common knowledge, and I don't try to hide it.  Somehow you are strangely fixated on it.  Pretty weird.

Keeping track eh..... Don't try to hide it - haha.... remember when you said it was "Boise"? That's funny. I don't recall you ever actually saying what it was, but then again I don't read every post. For the sake of foregoing a 5th or 6th time of asking, what was your old board name? 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, Idaho said:

It actually makes more sense that you are NJ Dan now that I think about it.... hmmm... switched your name from the last board..... refuses to talk about what your last name was on the last board......whereas I have always been Idaho as everybody on this board knows. . Hmm... interesting reverse psychology try there. 

Anyway.... Yeah we don't have as many huge donors as a lot of schools.... and as far as wrestling we  have zero national titles in recent years....which is kind of the point in full circle.....

You are quite dense.  

So Oregon State doesn't have big donors and no national titles and a new collective,  You think Stanford can find some big donors going forward, and get some NIL money in the future? (especially since collective was formed after last years acceptance deadline)

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Stanford always does quite well without NIL money.  Imagine adding a little?

https://nacda.com/news/2023/6/13/directorscup-stanford-grand-valley-johns-hopkins-and-indiana-tech-secure-learfield-directors-cups.aspx

[Idaho]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

You are quite dense.  

So Oregon State doesn't have big donors and no national titles and a new collective,  You think Stanford can find some big donors going forward, and get some NIL money in the future? (especially since collective was formed after last years acceptance deadline)

Um.... I have no clue where you are getting that I believe that..... must be lost in translation somewhere along these last two pages... Your point is why I asked ""Post some examples about Stanford sports and them using NIL as an example of Stanford getting richer and being in contention for national titles as a result." ... because they are not - much the same as 90% of the teams.  Could it happen down the road? Maybe. I guess we are agreeing on that???

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Um.... I have no clue where you are getting that I believe that..... must be lost in translation somewhere along these last two pages... Your point is why I asked ""Post some examples about Stanford sports and them using NIL as an example of Stanford getting richer and being in contention for national titles as a result." ... because they are not - much the same as 90% of the teams.  Could it happen down the road? Maybe. I guess we are agreeing on that???

Yes.  

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Exactly my point, and the Cornell network is going to be extremely helpful in this situation.

As far as "starting salary isn't everything," I would certainly agree, but it is about the only quantifiable data we have here.  Thus, unless you are aware of some other data points, I think Cornell wins this one.

Well there the reason the #1 is ranked #1, that'd be a data point.

But maybe we are looking at it wrong and Harvard or Stanford is the top wrestling program and we are just using the wrong data point. 

[TylerDurden]

5 hours ago, Idaho said:

"Rich getting richer" means that it will get even worse than it was before. That's what the suffix "er" means.... more.  There is no doubt that a few teams have dominated over the years, which has been discussed on this board many times. The portal/NIL era has undoubtedly given those same teams an even greater advantage because of the money they have to get free-agents to fill weak weights.  I'm fine with Koll not winning pac-12 titles - probably means my team has a good chance to win it. Regardless, he brought up good points.... and bad points- like winning a team trophy in 2 years. Not sure that's happening.

Your condescension aside, you keep throwing your vague opinion out there without any real substance.

Worse than what?  94% of team titles are owned by six schools. 

Greater advantage than when? Transfers and recruits have always been attracted to the best teams.

No one is buying titles anymore than they ever have by fully supporting their programs. Koll can (and will) do the same thing as anyone else as soon as Stanford catches up. He'll use the portal to recruit over the kids HS kids he's lying to right now. He'll use NIL enticements and the Cardinal Wrestling Club as draw. 

The NIL and portal aren't boogeymen. 

[VakAttack]

39 minutes ago, TylerDurden said:

Your condescension aside, you keep throwing your vague opinion out there without any real substance.

Worse than what?  94% of team titles are owned by six schools. 

Greater advantage than when? Transfers and recruits have always been attracted to the best teams.

No one is buying titles anymore than they ever have by fully supporting their programs. Koll can (and will) do the same thing as anyone else as soon as Stanford catches up. He'll use the portal to recruit over the kids HS kids he's lying to right now. He'll use NIL enticements and the Cardinal Wrestling Club as draw. 

The NIL and portal aren't boogeymen. 

Exactly.  He's critical of it now because he's not able to fully utilize it to his advantage.  If and when he can, he will.

[Idaho]

8 hours ago, TylerDurden said:

Your condescension aside, you keep throwing your vague opinion out there without any real substance.

Worse than what?  94% of team titles are owned by six schools. 

Greater advantage than when? Transfers and recruits have always been attracted to the best teams.

No one is buying titles anymore than they ever have by fully supporting their programs. Koll can (and will) do the same thing as anyone else as soon as Stanford catches up. He'll use the portal to recruit over the kids HS kids he's lying to right now. He'll use NIL enticements and the Cardinal Wrestling Club as draw. 

The NIL and portal aren't boogeymen. 

My apologies for being snarky...... Although Michigan is not "buying a title", their  pickup of 4 AA including an NCAA champ is unprecedented. The idea that you can replace almost half your lineup with AA is mind boggling. This is an example of how a team can now buy their way into contention (not a title) and land a trophy. That was not going to happen otherwise.  Even landing 2-3 AA as some teams have done is  unprecedented. PSU didn't need it,  but Iowa did to stay in trophy contention.

[wrestle87]

Yeah, folks, on all of this, let’s keep in mind this was a career move for Koll as well.  He didn’t just happen to go to one of the most sophisticated athletics departments attached to one of the top endowments in the top athletic programs at one of the top 3 Universities in the world.  Yeah, Cornell was nice, but it can’t hold a candle to the suite of offerings coming out if Stanford.

However…the issue Koll is becoming keenly aware of, as the Harvard, Princeton, and to a lesser extent Penn Columbia and Brown Coaches know, when a school is unwilling to budge much on admission criteria, certain sports teams suffer.  

Wrestling is one of the sports that requires the most of a human being mentally, physically, and time wise.  Being a successful wrestler requires that you have very little else going on in your life, including school.  As anecdotal evidence, albeit almost 15 years old at this poing, I stopped considering going D1 when a D1 coach slid a piece of paper across his desk to me and said “make sure you like this list, this is all that you can study if you come wrestle for me.” Noped out of there and non-ivy d1 recruiting from that day forward.

Excelling in the sport in the modern age requires sidestepping traditional education in a myriad of ways.  Most schools are Ok with that because athletes have never really been traditional students at 99.9% of colleges anyway.  Nowadays, a few schools still offer a degree with value beyond money.   Stanford is one of those schools.  The only catch is, you have to be smart and academically seasoned enough to complete the degree.  

This creates problems for Koll, because the by college time, the traits and priorities a kid must have for getting accepted to stanford and for being nationally competitive at wrestling are largely mutually exclusive.

[Idaho]

2 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

This creates problems for Koll, because the by college time, the traits and priorities a kid must have for getting accepted to stanford and for being nationally competitive at wrestling are largely mutually exclusive

Good point... 

I was looking at the other side of the spectrum at JC schools. I was surprised that Iowa had more JC schools with wrestling than any other state.  Iowa has 6, Minnesota 5 and Kansas 4. This is outside of California of course, which has there own system of JC schools. Way more opportunities for kids in those states to wrestle  and for D1 talent that needs a year to get grades and scores up in order to transfer (along with a myriad of other reasons). 

[ionel]

29 minutes ago, Idaho said:

Good point... 

I was looking at the other side of the spectrum at JC schools. I was surprised that Iowa had more JC schools with wrestling than any other state.  Iowa has 6, Minnesota 5 and Kansas 4. This is outside of California of course, which has there own system of JC schools. Way more opportunities for kids in those states to wrestle  and for D1 talent that needs a year to get grades and scores up in order to transfer (along with a myriad of other reasons). 

Sounds like Kansas might have the best opportunity, look at population programs.

[Warm Up Champ]

1 hour ago, Idaho said:

Good point... 

I was looking at the other side of the spectrum at JC schools. I was surprised that Iowa had more JC schools with wrestling than any other state.  Iowa has 6, Minnesota 5 and Kansas 4. This is outside of California of course, which has there own system of JC schools. Way more opportunities for kids in those states to wrestle  and for D1 talent that needs a year to get grades and scores up in order to transfer (along with a myriad of other reasons). 

Oregon currently has 3 with Clackamas, Umpqua, and Southwestern Oregon.  There is also talk of Blue Mountain adding wrestling which would push us to 4.

[BigRedFan]

5 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

However…the issue Koll is becoming keenly aware of, as the Harvard, Princeton, and to a lesser extent Penn Columbia and Brown Coaches know, when a school is unwilling to budge much on admission criteria, certain sports teams suffer.  

What's the evidence that there is this issue at these schools?

Out of curiosity, I checked Flo's class of 2023 recruitment list for top 100 recruits:

Brown:  2

Columbia:  0

Cornell:  4

Harvard:  1

Penn:  1

Princeton: 5

Stanford:  4

Something less than 10% of the D1 schools with 17% of the top 100 recruits.

2024

Cornell:  3

Penn:  2

Princeton:  2

Stanford:  a whopping 7

[wrestle87]

17 hours ago, BigRedFan said:

What's the evidence that there is this issue at these schools?

Out of curiosity, I checked Flo's class of 2023 recruitment list for top 100 recruits:

Brown:  2

Columbia:  0

Cornell:  4

Harvard:  1

Penn:  1

Princeton: 5

Stanford:  4

Something less than 10% of the D1 schools with 17% of the top 100 recruits.

2024

Cornell:  3

Penn:  2

Princeton:  2

Stanford:  a whopping 7

Evidence could be found in…the lack of total aggregate program results.  

As a quick exercise:

Step 1: Go ahead and name the best teams from princeton, harvard, and stanford by individual placement at ncaa’s and compare them to the same from Iowa, Penn State, and Oklahoma State.

Step 2: Theeeeen…take the best teams from each of those same six schools based on what they are doing professionally ten years after their last wrestling match and compare the results.

In each of these steps, you will find that one set is oddly unlike the other set.

[Dark Energy]

On 6/14/2023 at 11:23 AM, BigRedFan said:

There have been a number of Cornell wrestlers in the College of Engineering.  Dom LaJoie, now a graduate transfer to Stanford, is but one recent example.  Hatcher is there now.

Cardenas, Foca, and Fernandez are in the Architecture College, which is no walk in the park.

Is this a joke?  Architecture?  How the help are they doing that and wrestle at high level?  Time in day?  Don’t get it.  Architecture school is legendary for the workload.

[wrestle87]

8 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

Is this a joke?  Architecture?  How the help are they doing that and wrestle at high level?  Time in day?  Don’t get it.  Architecture school is legendary for the workload.

Well, some kids are truly superhuman. Otherwise, look at the specific major they are signed up for.  Not all majors are the same workload.  

Cornell may also allow for transfer of credits, completion of pre-reqs and other courses for special cases with the best athletes at one of the school’s best athletic teams.  Summer enrollment, extended semesters, etc.

The successful wrestlers at big schools are meaningful members of the institution, and schools tend to do what is necessary to ensure that those who contribute to the image of the school are taken care of.