This is just getting ridiculous

[Jamie_Taco]

6 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

It's not looking back. It's look AT THE TIME and seeing a 3X State Champ, JR National Champ who had two coaches in his driveway and thinking...the Asics All American team is not the ultimate authority on who the top ranked Wrestlers were and that JUUUUST maybe a time before the internet and the recruiting showcases and the other National Tournaments, one Wrestler not showing up on one list is less indicative of how good of a recruit he was than the coaches  who were AT HIS HOUSE trying to sign him the minute he was eligible to sign.

 

But...go back to your schooling!

Ah yes, so Gable was able to evaluate talent better than the rankings system and most coaches. Again, I already agreed with this, but we are talking about stockpiling the top HS recruits, which is based on a ranking system.

It also helped that Royce was born and raised in Iowa City.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Jamie_Taco

[scourge165]

1 minute ago, Jamie_Taco said:

Ah yes, so Gable was able to evaluate talent better than the rankings system and most coaches. Again, I already agreed with this, but we are talking about stockpiling the top HS recruits, which is based on a ranking system.

It also helped Royce to be born and raised in Iowa City.

You keep saying this while ignoring...Gable wasn't the only coach recruiting him, NOR was he the only coach in the driveway.

He WAS however the coach that convinced the kid from the family that had very little money to turn down the full ride for a 40%.

And sure, it helped he was from Iowa. It also helped that Gable had access to plane to fly out and recruit Wrestlers whenever he wanted.

Lots of things helped Iowa after Gable built their program up, but it seems as though you REALLY just need it to be this story of a bunch of rag tag Wrestlers who weren't any good until Dan Gable put his magic hands on him and made them GREAT...whereas PSU, they're the bag guys in this story! They don't work or develop their Wrestlers, it's all just handed to them on a silver platter!

 

The way these recruiting rankings were put together back then...if you can't see how inherently flawed they'd be just based on the tools at hand, then I can't help you(but I don't think you want to be helped). 

Iowa was great. They dominated the sport. They're STILL the #2 program...it just isn't close right now. 

[Jamie_Taco]

1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

You keep saying this while ignoring...Gable wasn't the only coach recruiting him, NOR was he the only coach in the driveway.

He WAS however the coach that convinced the kid from the family that had very little money to turn down the full ride for a 40%.

And sure, it helped he was from Iowa. It also helped that Gable had access to plane to fly out and recruit Wrestlers whenever he wanted.

Lots of things helped Iowa after Gable built their program up, but it seems as though you REALLY just need it to be this story of a bunch of rag tag Wrestlers who weren't any good until Dan Gable put his magic hands on him and made them GREAT...whereas PSU, they're the bag guys in this story! They don't work or develop their Wrestlers, it's all just handed to them on a silver platter!

 

The way these recruiting rankings were put together back then...if you can't see how inherently flawed they'd be just based on the tools at hand, then I can't help you(but I don't think you want to be helped). 

Iowa was great. They dominated the sport. They're STILL the #2 program...it just isn't close right now. 

Dude, I never said anything close to Gable just taking ragtag guys. Not at all. I posted the recruiting numbers for both coaches, which are what they are, even if you don't agree with them 30-40 years later. My first post in this thread showed that Gable had top recruits throughout his career. Not as many as you might think, but he obviously got top-rated kids to Iowa City.

I also said Gable was a master motivator and great at evaluating and developing talent. Again, see Chris Campbell. This idea from some that he was recruiting like PSU is recruiting is what I am arguing against.

And you are right that Iowa is #2 right now. They are #2 all-time behind Okie State and #2 currently behind PSU. Quite a ways behind in both, sadly (for me lol). However, this conversation really has nothing to do with that. Where was the PSU program ranked in the 80s and 90s?

[Jamie_Taco]

30 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Wehereas PSU, they're the bag guys in this story! They don't work or develop their Wrestlers, it's all just handed to them on a silver platter!

I also forgot to respond to this and couldn't just leave it lol. Again, where did I say anything about PSU not developing guys and saying it's all about the bag man? The fact is, combined with development, they are recruiting insanely well. Better than we've ever seen a program recruit at this level (and the senior level with NLWC). Just because the two programs and dynasties were built differently doesn't make one morally better than the other.

Honestly, you seem to be the one with the insecurities about how PSU has built its dynasty.

[scourge165]

10 minutes ago, Jamie_Taco said:

I also forgot to respond to this and couldn't just leave it lol. Again, where did I say anything about PSU not developing guys and saying it's all about the bag man? The fact is, combined with development, they are recruiting insanely well. Better than we've ever seen a program recruit at this level (and the senior level with NLWC). Just because the two programs and dynasties were built differently doesn't make one morally better than the other.

Honestly, you seem to be the one with the insecurities about how PSU has built its dynasty.

I didn't see you say it anywhere...which is why I didn't reply to it. The term "silver platter," means it's just handed to them. Not that they're just paying guys to come there.

 

I'm not a PSU fan dude(I've ALSO said I don't think this is good for the sport in general). I just find your logic fundamentally flawed. You're using ONE ranking reference from what may as well be the stone age as compared to now. I believe you're wrong and I think you realize that, particularly in relation to Alger, but just in general. "Top 10," back then. That's just a guess of guys at that weight. NOW it's guys who are Wrestling each other REGULARLY. A guy like Clayton Whiting would have been #1 coming in and beating an Iowa starter before his Sr year in HS. He was the...what, 20th ranked recruit? 

You had one FRACTION of the information available to create a "rankings" system. 

Again, I just don't believe you believe the rankings today and the rankings from pre-internet are even remotely comparable.

 

Now...if you want to talk about the classes that PSU has coming in...THAT is different and that is getting a little ridiculous. That's almost like OSU's '22 class but in back to back years. Especially if Hopke ends up there.

[Le duke]

Word on the street is that Cael took this personally, and still takes it personally, and won't rest until he doubles Iowa's points at NCAAs.

https://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/platform/amp/2010/1/29/1284010/welcome-back-cael-1-iowa-wrestling

[Jamie_Taco]

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I didn't see you say it anywhere...which is why I didn't reply to it. The term "silver platter," means it's just handed to them. Not that they're just paying guys to come there.

 

I'm not a PSU fan dude(I've ALSO said I don't think this is good for the sport in general). I just find your logic fundamentally flawed. You're using ONE ranking reference from what may as well be the stone age as compared to now. I believe you're wrong and I think you realize that, particularly in relation to Alger, but just in general. "Top 10," back then. That's just a guess of guys at that weight. NOW it's guys who are Wrestling each other REGULARLY. A guy like Clayton Whiting would have been #1 coming in and beating an Iowa starter before his Sr year in HS. He was the...what, 20th ranked recruit? 

You had one FRACTION of the information available to create a "rankings" system. 

Again, I just don't believe you believe the rankings today and the rankings from pre-internet are even remotely comparable.

 

Now...if you want to talk about the classes that PSU has coming in...THAT is different and that is getting a little ridiculous. That's almost like OSU's '22 class but in back to back years. Especially if Hopke ends up there.

Holy shit. My "logic" is based on actual recruiting rankings. Yours is off your opinion 30+ years after the fact. Lol how TF is this so hard for you to grasp? 

[Jamie_Taco]

Also, thanks for explaining what a silver platter means LOL. Again, where are you getting these statements? I never said PSU got anything handed to them on a silver platter, so where is that coming from? I said Iowa never recruited like PSU is currently recruiting and then provided the documented facts to back that up. You don't like the recruiting rankings from back in the day, and that's fine, but it doesn't make them any less real lol.

Again, it's my facts (the rankings) vs your opinions. Pretty easy to poo on rankings after you know how it all panned out .

[scourge165]

On 4/23/2023 at 8:45 PM, Jamie_Taco said:

Also, thanks for explaining what a silver platter means LOL. Again, where are you getting these statements? I never said PSU got anything handed to them on a silver platter, so where is that coming from? I said Iowa never recruited like PSU is currently recruiting and then provided the documented facts to back that up. You don't like the recruiting rankings from back in the day, and that's fine, but it doesn't make them any less real lol.

Again, it's my facts (the rankings) vs your opinions. Pretty easy to poo on rankings after you know how it all panned out .

No problem. You didn't seem to understand as you said it was all about the "bag man."

Tom Ryan showing up on campus and as you say, top 10 recruit Brinzer and they didn't even recruit him. How'd he end up there?

Seems like they're showing up on a Silver Platter...as the expression goes. In other words, they were delivered to him without him even recruiting them. 

 

On 4/23/2023 at 8:40 PM, Jamie_Taco said:

Holy shit. My "logic" is based on actual recruiting rankings. Yours is off your opinion 30+ years after the fact. Lol how TF is this so hard for you to grasp? 

Mine is based on how inherently flawed the rankings you have only cut and pasted from the 1980s before Flo Nationals, Who's #1, Recruiting showcases, YOUTUBE, the INTERNET...vs modern rankings are.

Not hindsight.

Just the exclusion of Alger on that list makes it laughable and makes me dubious of all of your rankings. 

[Eagle26]

Well, at least the title of the thread still applies to what it has become…

[PortaJohn]

48 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Well, at least the title of the thread still applies to what it has become…

We have an old fashion Tbar vs MSU back & forth banter going on right now.  

[MNRodent]

On 4/23/2023 at 6:54 PM, Le duke said:

Word on the street is that Cael took this personally, and still takes it personally, and won't rest until he doubles Iowa's points at NCAAs.

https://www.blackheartgoldpants.com/platform/amp/2010/1/29/1284010/welcome-back-cael-1-iowa-wrestling

That's some good unbiased journalism right there.

 

[Jamie_Taco]

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

No problem. You didn't seem to understand as you said it was all about the "bag man."

Tom Ryan showing up on campus and as you say, top 10 recruit Brinzer and they didn't even recruit him. How'd he end up there?

Seems like they're showing up on a Silver Platter...as the expression goes. In other words, they were delivered to him without him even recruiting them. 

 

Mine is based on how inherently flawed the rankings you have only cut and pasted from the 1980s before Flo Nationals, Who's #1, Recruiting showcases, YOUTUBE, the INTERNET...vs modern rankings are.

Not hindsight.

Just the exclusion of Alger on that list makes it laughable and makes me dubious of all of your rankings. 

LOL I am sure you were letting everyone know how bad the rankings were back in 1983. Scourge165, Harold, and Gable knew about Royce Alger's talent from day 1! Scourge165 knew the rankings were flawed and was arguing with everyone in '82 about Royce and how he should be a top-rated recruit.

You also make it seem like Alger won his Junior National Title prior to committing to Iowa. You do realize that was the summer before his freshman year of college, right? The rankings had already been released and Royce had already committed to Iowa before winning his Junior National Title. Again, how easy is it for you to call out "flawed" rankings 30+ years later? That's the definition of hindsight, you dope .

Also, wouldn't your argument mean that Gable and Iowa had to work harder to find the best talent, since you know, the rankings were flawed? No Flo Nationals, Who's #1, and so on like you say, so no just pulling up the interwebs to find and recruit the best talent. You actually had to have contacts, travel, and scout prospects yourself because as you said, you couldn't rely on the rankings. I am starting to question if you even remember the original argument here.

Once again, you can just admit you're wrong and we can all move on. Gable didn't build his program with the nation's top recruits. That's a proven fact and I am sorry you don't want to accept that fact, for whatever reason lol.

[Wrestleknownothing]

Could you guys restate your positions? I think I may have missed them.

[Offthemat]

6 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Could you guys restate your positions? I think I may have missed them.

This is just getting ridiculous. 

[PortaJohn]

@Jamie_Taco & @scourge165 any chance we can put this debate on pause for a moment and move on to weather predictions?  Now vs 1980s.  Is weather forecasting better today?  Debate!

[Jamie_Taco]

10 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

@Jamie_Taco & @scourge165 any chance we can put this debate on pause for a moment and move on to weather predictions?  Now vs 1980s.  Is weather forecasting better today?  Debate!

I'm honestly not sure. We better defer to Captain Hindsight, @scourge165.

Edited April 25, 2023 by Jamie_Taco

[PortaJohn]

14 minutes ago, Jamie_Taco said:

I'm honestly not sure. We better defer to Captain Hindsight, @scourge165.

To be fair  Captain Hindsight has some valid points

[98lberEating2Lunches]

On 4/23/2023 at 1:22 PM, Jamie_Taco said:

 

Thanks for posting this.  I noticed the name of a friend and former co-worker on it.  I knew he had wrestled, but didn't realize he was an ASICS HS Other All-America Selection.  I texted him and confirmed.  We had texted previous to and during NCAAs.

When I explained the nature of the debate (relative strength of Gable vs Cael recruits / they're relative contribution to dominance)--that caused me to see his name listed from 1983-- he replied.

" "

That's a direct quote.  I think it pretty much sums up this argument.

Edited April 25, 2023 by 98lberEating2Lunches

[BlacknGold]

On 4/22/2023 at 5:01 PM, AKHUNTER said:

I am not going to go down their roster and show you how many top 10 guys they have. you are cherry picking one particular year. I don't think you are trying to say they get very few top 10 guys .........or are you?

 

On 4/22/2023 at 5:03 PM, Jamie_Taco said:

Just to compare:

Penn State's Top 10 Recruits under Sanderson (2009 - 2024) (1.9 per year):

2009

1. David Taylor, St. Paris, OH

2010

1. Andrew Alton, Lock Haven, PA
2. Dylan Alton, Lock Haven, PA

2011

1. Morgan McIntosh - Santa Ana, CA
2. Nico Megaludis – Murrysville, PA

2012

1. Jimmy Gulibon – Derry, PA

2013

1. Zain Retherford – Benton, PA

2014

1. Jason Nolf - Rural Valley, PA
2. Nick Nevills - Clovis, CA
3. Bo Nickal – Allen, TX

2015

1. Vincenzo Joseph – Pittsburgh, PA

2016

1. Mark Hall - Apple Valley, MN
2. Nick Suriano – Paramus, NJ
3. Mason Manville – Lorton, VA

2017

1. Brady Berge
2. Nick Lee

2018

1. Aaron Brooks
2. Michael Beard

2019

1. Greg Kerkvliet
2. Carter Starocci

2020

1. Beau Barlett
2. Robert Howard

2021

1. Alex Facundo
2. Shayne Van Ness

2022

1. Levi Haines

2023

1. Josh Barr

2024

1. Luke Lilledahl
2. Joseph Sealey
3. Zack Ryder
4. Mason Gibson
5. Connor Mirasola

They think Cael has super power coaching ability and his recruits were nomads off the street that trusted the process... 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 minutes ago, BlacknGold said:

 

They think Cael has super power coaching ability and his recruits were nomads off the street that trusted the process... 

Meanwhile, in real life, he has had multiple high level recruits (top five recruit/age group world champ level) not place at NCAA.

Cael is doing the best job of anyone out there, but lets not forget that he has had some "can't miss" studs miss.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

6 hours ago, PortaJohn said:

We have an old fashion Tbar vs MSU back & forth banter going on right now.  

Where is TBar?

[PortaJohn]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Where is TBar?

I think once MSU committed to post on HR it broke Tbars heart and we'll never hear from him again 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Where is TBar?

For the record, was it TBar or Tbar?

MSU accused me of being Tbar once.  And when I replied I was not TBar, he suspected me even more.  Said that was exactly what TBar would do.

He has accused a few other posters since, so I think I'm off the hook.

[PortaJohn]

29 minutes ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

For the record, was it TBar or Tbar?

MSU accused me of being Tbar once.  And when I replied I was not TBar, he suspected me even more.  Said that was exactly what TBar would do.

He has accused a few other posters since, so I think I'm off the hook

MSU is a grouchy old feller