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Chael’s take on Spencer Lee


Jimmy Cinnabon

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i will preface this by saying i hate even attempting a legitimate response to even one of OP's poo topics...

but...

i have been around chael in his public persona and i have been around chael when he is hanging with his boys...

chael is an absolute sweetheart of a guy and i send vids of him to my kids who never want to have a real job in their lives...

 

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He plays fast and lose with the truth. Everyone who is on this board knows that Spencer was not favored to win the Olympic Gold in 2020 or 2024.

Why do people need to stretch the truth, the story is compelling enough without the exaggerations.

I  made it half way through and he kept piling on more untruths.

Specner was not going to be the first and 4X PA champ. 

He was not undefeated in college until his tournament.

After 5 minutes I could not take anymore

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35 minutes ago, Jim L said:

He plays fast and lose with the truth. Everyone who is on this board knows that Spencer was not favored to win the Olympic Gold in 2020 or 2024.

Why do people need to stretch the truth, the story is compelling enough without the exaggerations.

I  made it half way through and he kept piling on more untruths.

Specner was not going to be the first and 4X PA champ. 

He was not undefeated in college until his tournament.

After 5 minutes I could not take anymore

Thank you thank you thank you for this.  After five minutes I was alternating between laughing at how ridiculous it was, and not being able to take it anymore.  

It was so bad on so many levels that it's not worth unpacking them all.  Suffice it to say that the factual errors you mention were just the tip of the iceberg - the real outrage was the absurd judgments and comparisons he made and the oversimplifications of an extraordinarily complex situation involving a human being who put his heart into the choices he made which didn't work out well this week.  One hopes that he has better luck going forward, on the mat if the knees haven't made that impossible, and off the mat where his substantial drive and intelligence will present many opportunities.

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39 minutes ago, dragit said:

Thank you thank you thank you for this.  After five minutes I was alternating between laughing at how ridiculous it was, and not being able to take it anymore.  

It was so bad on so many levels that it's not worth unpacking them all.  Suffice it to say that the factual errors you mention were just the tip of the iceberg - the real outrage was the absurd judgments and comparisons he made and the oversimplifications of an extraordinarily complex situation involving a human being who put his heart into the choices he made which didn't work out well this week.  One hopes that he has better luck going forward, on the mat if the knees haven't made that impossible, and off the mat where his substantial drive and intelligence will present many opportunities.

I was just about to send a post asking who the hell watches this  blowhard for 12 minutes?  Ignorant wrestling fans or misled MMA guys that think Chael is well respected in wrestling circles? Then I circled back to his Youtube video and saw that he has a million subscribers and 26K+ views on that one video, so what the hell do I know?

Edited by Jim L
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I thought Chael instinct was good. Its not what we want because we love what Spencer is for are sport and feel bad for him.

I think see a lot more from spencer. Spencer earned a break.

That doesn't mean though Chael was wrong. 

 

JMHO

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Jim L said:

 

I was just about to send a post asking who the hell watches this  blowhard for 12 minutes?  Ignorant wrestling fans or misled MMA guys that think Chael is well respected in wrestling circles? Then I circled back to his Youtube video and saw that he has a million subscribers and 26K+ views on that one video, so what the hell do I know?

The decline of western civilization part 853.

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28 minutes ago, Jim L said:

 

I was just about to send a post asking who the hell watches this  blowhard for 12 minutes?  Ignorant wrestling fans or misled MMA guys that think Chael is well respected in wrestling circles? Then I circled back to his Youtube video and saw that he has a million subscribers and 26K+ views on that one video, so what the hell do I know?

Criticizing Chael’s accuracy is totally fair. But he’s not speaking as a historian. What he’s doing is storytelling and projecting a feeling or lesson to people who don’t know much about wrestling. And IMO he’s effective.

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I like a lot of Chanel’s wrestling videos.

This one did seem more drawn out than most.

And honestly it wasn’t really a “take” on Spencer.  It basically took him 11 minutes to say he thought MFF’s should be worth the same as pins + 30% for the other guy.   I’m not sure if he even said they should count as losses for the guy MFF’ing

 

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No one on a niche forum is going to be persuaded by logic…

they are here for the same reasons n we all are…

I’m just saying… the person with the absolute best judge of character of anyone I have ever met said immediately after meeting him…

”I like chael”

 trust me when I say his intentions are pure…

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1 hour ago, Jim L said:

Specner was not going to be the first and 4X PA champ. 

He didn't say first 4x champ.  He said "first ever undefeated Pennsylvania 4x state champion." This is a significant difference.  Like the difference between Pat Smith and Cael at the NCAA level, but he also wasn't there were 4x champs that did so without losing before.  

I do not like his final suggestion to give more points (30% more) than a pin for forfeiting in a tournament.  This would make the scoring system worse.  Most of the time there are only two or three teams with a shot at the team title.  Often times the wrestler forfeiting out is not on one of them.  If you're on a team competing for a team title there is plenty of incentive to wrestle.  Will a gentleman on a team that isn't in the race for a team title be motivated by gifting 0.6 extra team points to whoever his consolation match is against?  I am skeptical.  Spencer Lee isn't going to be worried about giving 0.6 team points to ASU and Nebraska.  The opportunity cost of points he could have earned Iowa is far greater than 1.2 team points. 

His suggestion would be totally ineffectual and it could make it less fair. Imagine a razor close team race between Iowa and PSU.  Obviously none of their guys are defaulting if they can wrestle because they want the team title.  Some wrestler on different team that might be able to wrestle forfeits out and in so doing forfeits to a PSU wrestler and these 0.6 extra team points prove decisive in the team race.  Is that fair? Is that anyway to pick a team champ?

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It's great that someone with Chael's visibility is promoting wrestling. He does play fast and loose with the facts but the point holds. And holding wrestlers out of duals thereby preventing great in-season matchups is even worse for the sport than consolation forfeits. 

Unless Spencer had an emergent injury, he should have finished out the tournament.

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Spencer wasn't the first ever unbeaten PA 4x State Champ. Kolat and Marstellar were 4x PIAA State Champs. Lee was neither unbeaten or a 4 time State Champ in high school. You'd think Sonnen would not have made that claim after describing Lee losing his final h.s. match. 

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I don't think I really like his suggestion for MFF (30% team point bonus on top of a pin). The problem is that it rewards a random-ish opponent, as opposed to punishing the offender.

In this particular case, it would not have made any difference. Courtney from ASU and Cronin from NEB were the beneficiaries, and each would have got 1 more team point, but that would not have made any difference in the team standings. And it certainly would not have affected Iowa. And if it had made a difference in the team standings, would we like it? Say this had been the difference between a team being in 11th place vs 10th place (Iowa State vs NC State). If Iowa State won on a MFF and gets 3 bonus team points in Chael's system(2 regular points for MFF and 1 extra), is that really fair to NC State? The Iowa State kid did not even wrestle and gets big points.

A fairer system would punish the team that did the MFF rather than reward the opponent. But that has problems too. What is to stop a person from taking 3 injury times right away to avoid the MFF? Or pulling a DF and self-pinning? I don't think anyone wants to see farcical matches, and I don't see how you can force someone to wrestle who really does not want to, for whatever reason.

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14 hours ago, Theo Brixton said:

It's great that someone with Chael's visibility is promoting wrestling. He does play fast and loose with the facts but the point holds. And holding wrestlers out of duals thereby preventing great in-season matchups is even worse for the sport than consolation forfeits. 

Unless Spencer had an emergent injury, he should have finished out the tournament.

What's the point?   As others said, slim chance giving additional team points to the other guys would have resulted in Lee wrestling.

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1 hour ago, jdowntown said:

A fairer system would punish the team that did the MFF rather than reward the opponent.

That is the current system.  Iowa was punished via opportunity cost.  Spencer Lee had the opportunity to earn Iowa 0.5 advancement points, 4 additional placement points and up to 4 additional bonus points by wrestling Saturday morning.  That's 8.5 team points Lee had a crack at.  Do you really think adding some penalty that would have subtracted 1-2 points from Iowa's total would have changed things?  If it was a tight team race for the title with PSU he could have been out there, or he would have been seriously injured, or he is just an awful teammate. 

I don't really get Chael's point that ESPN was somehow upset/wrong by this.  Session 5 matches are not on regular ESPN or even ESPN2.  It was ESPN+ and ESPNU.  They don't even have any dead time as the were 4 mats going simultaneously so they always had a mat to show.  If they were upset it was probably more about the promotion for a match Saturday night that wasn't going to happen, but them the breaks.  Reebok paid for the Dan vs Dave campaign before the 1992 Olympics and Dan didn't qualify.  The Red Sox signed to $142 million 7 year contract and he played less than 162 games for them.  The UFC realized this decades ago and stopped the tournament format PPVs.  You are going to get injury scratches in that format.

The thing here is that these are unpaid college students competing not professional athletes.  It would be difficult to incentivize/disincentivize them enough to stamp out the practice and we need to ask if the NCAA should be twisting the arms of injured/semi injured/disinterested athletes so as to not ruin their broadcast deals?  If they paid prize money for placement that would seemingly solve everything.  If the difference between placement positions was a few thousand dollars there would be incentive for even individuals on non-contenders to get out there.  With the team race over for Iowa and this being they year before the Olympics the upcoming freestyle season will be important.  Why should Spencer Lee risk these two matches if he doesn't want to?  NCAA Football players skip bowl games.  You don't really see it with the playoff games, but the non-playoff bowls which are more analogous to these anyway. 

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22 hours ago, LJB said:

i will preface this by saying i hate even attempting a legitimate response to even one of OP's poo topics...

but...

i have been around chael in his public persona and i have been around chael when he is hanging with his boys...

chael is an absolute sweetheart of a guy and i send vids of him to my kids who never want to have a real job in their lives...

 

Same... and I agree. Super nice guy in person... talked to him this weekend and came away with a great impression of the guy. Funny how people want to point out all these little things instead of the point he was making.... back side ffts are a huge problem and it needs to be remedied. You know, the same stuff we complain about on  here all time. 

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Sponsored by INTERMAT ⭐⭐⭐⭐

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17 hours ago, fishbane said:

He didn't say first 4x champ.  He said "first ever undefeated Pennsylvania 4x state champion." This is a significant difference.  Like the difference between Pat Smith and Cael at the NCAA level, but he also wasn't there were 4x champs that did so without losing before.  

I do not like his final suggestion to give more points (30% more) than a pin for forfeiting in a tournament.  This would make the scoring system worse.  Most of the time there are only two or three teams with a shot at the team title.  Often times the wrestler forfeiting out is not on one of them.  If you're on a team competing for a team title there is plenty of incentive to wrestle.  Will a gentleman on a team that isn't in the race for a team title be motivated by gifting 0.6 extra team points to whoever his consolation match is against?  I am skeptical.  Spencer Lee isn't going to be worried about giving 0.6 team points to ASU and Nebraska.  The opportunity cost of points he could have earned Iowa is far greater than 1.2 team points. 

His suggestion would be totally ineffectual and it could make it less fair. Imagine a razor close team race between Iowa and PSU.  Obviously none of their guys are defaulting if they can wrestle because they want the team title.  Some wrestler on different team that might be able to wrestle forfeits out and in so doing forfeits to a PSU wrestler and these 0.6 extra team points prove decisive in the team race.  Is that fair? Is that anyway to pick a team champ?

But Spencer wouldn't have been the first undefeated 4x PIAA champ.  He's still wrong

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I Don't Agree With What I Posted

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22 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

But Spencer wouldn't have been the first undefeated 4x PIAA champ.  He's still wrong

I know.  He added something after that about being "on TV or something."  Probably doesn't change the truthfulness/accuracy of the statement much.

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1 hour ago, fishbane said:

I know.  He added something after that about being "on TV or something."  Probably doesn't change the truthfulness/accuracy of the statement much.

I actually like Chael. I find him amusing but he's the same guy who swears the Nogueira brothers fed a carrot to a bus because they thought it was a horse

I Don't Agree With What I Posted

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9 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I actually like Chael. I find him amusing but he's the same guy who swears the Nogueira brothers fed a carrot to a bus because they thought it was a horse

so...

you didn't get it?

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