After Spencer leaves, there isn't even anyone who can be the next Spencer

[Caveira]

41 minutes ago, Gus said:

Yes, this is evident by all the 4 time champions coming from the lower weights. Oh wait…

Ha whoops lol

[Gus]

7 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Ha whoops lol

And if you look at guys that put up a lot of bonus points in the last 10 years or so they are mostly middle to upper weight guys. Below is a list of guys off the top of my head that had high bonus rates and did a lot of winning. As you can see a lot are in the middle to upper weights. Zain, Nick Lee and Stieber are the only ones in the lower weights and they were 133/141/149 guys.

Gable Steveson, Nick Lee, Zain Retherford, Logan Steiber, Jason Nolf, Bo Nickal, Alex Dierringer, Zahid Valencia, J'Den Cox, Kyle Snyder, Ed Ruth, David Taylor

[SocraTease]

45 minutes ago, Gus said:

Yes, this is evident by all the 4 time champions coming from the lower weights. Oh wait…

A.  Most guys can't continue to make 125 (and the very low weights, formerly 118, among others). They tend to move up and out of these weight(s).

B.  The very few elite guys who can remain at the lightweights are able to dominate more easily (than comparable guys at the upper weights):

Lee, Steiber (4 timer), RBY (likely 3 timer), Ricky Bonomo (118 three timer), Barry Davis (three timer at 118 and 126), Greg Johnson (3 timer at 118), Tom Brands (3-timer at 134), Abas (3 timer at 125), Jaworsky (3 timer at 134),  Guerrero (3 timer at 126 and 133), Simons (3 timer at 115), Caruso (3 timer at 123), Uetake (3 timer at 130), Simons 3 timer at 115), Peery (3 timer at 123), etc. 

Both things can be true.  In fact, they are likely correlated and probably causally related.

There have only been 4 4-timers so that is such a small sample size that little can be deduced from it. 

 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

13 hours ago, Gus said:

Gibson is not even the top recruit in his weight class. Jax Forrest or Bo Bassett could be the next guy 

He's not even the best on his high school team!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 hours ago, SocraTease said:

It's much easier to dominate at the very lowest weight (compared to other weights), especially for a guy who stayed there (what?) for 6 years. 

It's extremely hard to dominate at middle and upper weights for younger guys because your body is not fully mature and your opponents often are.

Lee has enormous hand and arm strength and most guys outgrow 125.  It's very difficult for someone to stay there for 3 or 4 years.

Just sayin'

 

Yeah... Suriano outgrew 125 until Lee had two torn ACLS then he mysteriously dropped a weight!

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

38 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

 

There have only been 4 4-timers so that is such a small sample size that little can be deduced from it. 

 

 

HUGE sample size of thousands of wrestlers! The only four timers from middle and upper weights!

[Gus]

53 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

A.  Most guys can't continue to make 125 (and the very low weights, formerly 118, among others). They tend to move up and out of these weight(s).

B.  The very few elite guys who can remain at the lightweights are able to dominate more easily (than comparable guys at the upper weights):

Lee, Steiber (4 timer), RBY (likely 3 timer), Ricky Bonomo (118 three timer), Barry Davis (three timer at 118 and 126), Greg Johnson (3 timer at 118), Tom Brands (3-timer at 134), Abas (3 timer at 125), Jaworsky (3 timer at 134),  Guerrero (3 timer at 126 and 133), Simons (3 timer at 115), Caruso (3 timer at 123), Uetake (3 timer at 130), Simons 3 timer at 115), Peery (3 timer at 123), etc. 

Both things can be true.  In fact, they are likely correlated and probably causally related.

There have only been 4 4-timers so that is such a small sample size that little can be deduced from it. 

 

 

How do you explain all the dominant 2-3-4 x national champions from the middle and upper weights then? The reality is that truly dominant wrestles come in all shapes and sizes and the original premise (it is easier to be a dominant lightweight) that you proposed is just not true.

[peanut]

54 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

A.  Most guys can't continue to make 125 (and the very low weights, formerly 118, among others). They tend to move up and out of these weight(s).

B.  The very few elite guys who can remain at the lightweights are able to dominate more easily (than comparable guys at the upper weights):

Lee, Steiber (4 timer), RBY (likely 3 timer), Ricky Bonomo (118 three timer), Barry Davis (three timer at 118 and 126), Greg Johnson (3 timer at 118), Tom Brands (3-timer at 134), Abas (3 timer at 125), Jaworsky (3 timer at 134),  Guerrero (3 timer at 126 and 133), Simons (3 timer at 115), Caruso (3 timer at 123), Uetake (3 timer at 130), Simons 3 timer at 115), Peery (3 timer at 123), etc. 

Both things can be true.  In fact, they are likely correlated and probably causally related.

There have only been 4 4-timers so that is such a small sample size that little can be deduced from it. 

 

 

125 is the weight class where you most often see forfeits. But it can be a tough weight.

133 is often a tough weight—including this year. RBY is a 2x champ. Fix is a world silver medalist and 3x runner up. Vito is a Pan Am champ and junior silver medalist. Etc.

[SocraTease]

1 hour ago, Gus said:

How do you explain all the dominant 2-3-4 x national champions from the middle and upper weights then? The reality is that truly dominant wrestles come in all shapes and sizes and the original premise (it is easier to be a dominant lightweight) that you proposed is just not true.

There have obviously been returning champs at other weights.  My point still holds.   Guys almost always move up (not down) or hold their weight if they return.  Younger, less experienced, less mature physically and technically guys move in.   Almost all the new guys at lower weights are first year wrestlers.  This gives a potential advantage to the better guys that can return or hold their weights.   

Has their ever been a freshman who won 285 or even 197? (Ferrari was one of the few exceptions at 197.)

Give me some numbers, statistics, and support.  You just assert a "feeling"

Edited March 15, 2023 by SocraTease

[SocraTease]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

HUGE sample size of thousands of wrestlers! The only four timers from middle and upper weights!

Steiber won at 133 and 141.  Those are LOWER weights!  Lee is about to win his 4th. 

Why fetishize 4-timers>  Look at 3 timers.

Edited March 15, 2023 by SocraTease

[SocraTease]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Yeah... Suriano outgrew 125 until Lee had two torn ACLS then he mysteriously dropped a weight!

You cherry pick examples.  "One swallow [bird] does not a summer make" (Aristotle)

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

You cherry pick examples.  "One swallow [bird] does not a summer make" (Aristotle)

I have had quotes by Plato and Aristotle directed at me today, one of which was from SocraTease. (The other was from Backward Hat Guy)

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

18 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

There have obviously been returning champs at other weights.  My point still holds.   Guys almost always move up (not down) or hold their weight if they return.  Younger, less experienced, less mature physically and technically guys move in.   Almost all the new guys at lower weights are first year wrestlers.  This gives a potential advantage to the better guys that can return or hold their weights.   

Has their ever been a freshman who won 285 or even 197? (Ferrari was one of the few exceptions at 197.)

Give me some numbers, statistics, and support.  You just assert a "feeling"

Those freshman heavyweight and 190/197 champs are playing football.

You were given numbers, you just chose not to take them.  You say the limited number of four time champs is too small a sample size; I asserted the sample size is every athlete who ever wrestled division 1 in college since the early 70s. 

You worry about "feelings," but hint that  the only reason Lee wins is "hand and arm strength."

Edited March 15, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Gus]

32 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

There have obviously been returning champs at other weights.  My point still holds.   Guys almost always move up (not down) or hold their weight if they return.  Younger, less experienced, less mature physically and technically guys move in.   Almost all the new guys at lower weights are first year wrestlers.  This gives a potential advantage to the better guys that can return or hold their weights.   

Has their ever been a freshman who won 285 or even 197? (Ferrari was one of the few exceptions at 197.)

Give me some numbers, statistics, and support.  You just assert a "feeling"

Since 1990 the true Freshman that have won NCAA titles are Pat Smith (mid weight), Teyon Ware (low/mid), Dustin Schlatter (mid weight, Kyle Dake (lower/mid), J'Den Cox (upper weight) and Myles Martin (mid/upper weight), Spencer Lee (lower weight), Mark Hall (mid), Yianni (mid), AJ Ferrari (upper).

I may have missed someone but as you can see the true freshman national champions are pretty evenly dispersed from lower to upper weights.

[jchapman]

44 minutes ago, SocraTease said:

There have obviously been returning champs at other weights.  My point still holds.   Guys almost always move up (not down) or hold their weight if they return.  Younger, less experienced, less mature physically and technically guys move in.   Almost all the new guys at lower weights are first year wrestlers.  This gives a potential advantage to the better guys that can return or hold their weights.   

Has their ever been a freshman who won 285 or even 197? (Ferrari was one of the few exceptions at 197.)

Give me some numbers, statistics, and support.  You just assert a "feeling"

Dick Hutton won Heavyweight as a true freshman.

[Gus]

30 minutes ago, jchapman said:

Dick Hutton won Heavyweight as a true freshman.

J'Den Cox won it at 197 as a true freshman.

[Gus]

1 hour ago, SocraTease said:

Steiber won at 133 and 141.  Those are LOWER weights!  Lee is about to win his 4th. 

Why fetishize 4-timers>  Look at 3 timers.

Looking through the list of 3 time NCAA champions https://www.fancowrestling.com/multiple-time-ncaa-wrestling-champions/ I count:

18 lower weight wrestlers

23 middle weight wrestlers

9 upper weight wrestlers

[Wrestleknownothing]

Three of four timers who won as a freshman in the upper half of weights:

• 1950 Bill Nelson 155 (current 165)
• 1950 Dick Hutton UNL
• 1983 Ed Banach 190
• 1997 Lincoln McIlravy 150 (current 157)
• 2005 Greg Jones 184
• 2006 Jake Rosholt 197
• 2017 J'Den Cox 197

 

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

Two of four timers who won as a freshman in the upper half of weights (I am not 100% sure this is complete):

• 1993 Markus Mollica 158 (current 165)
• 1994 Mark Branch 167 (current 174)
• 2021 Carter Starocci 174 (2 of 4 and maybe more)
• 2021 Aaron Brooks 184 (2 of 4 and maybe more)

 

[PortaJohn]

1 hour ago, Gus said:

Since 1990 the true Freshman that have won NCAA titles are Pat Smith (mid weight), Teyon Ware (low/mid), Dustin Schlatter (mid weight, Kyle Dake (lower/mid), J'Den Cox (upper weight) and Myles Martin (mid/upper weight), Spencer Lee (lower weight), Mark Hall (mid), Yianni (mid), AJ Ferrari (upper).

I may have missed someone but as you can see the true freshman national champions are pretty evenly dispersed from lower to upper weights.

I think Lincoln Mcllravy '93 (142) is the only wrestler missing from your list

Edited March 15, 2023 by PortaJohn

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 minutes ago, PortaJohn said:

I think Lincoln Mcllravy '93 (142) is the only wrestler missing from your list

look up

[Wrestleknownothing]

1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Three of four timers who won as a freshman in the upper half of weights:

• 1950 Bill Nelson 155 (current 165)
• 1950 Dick Hutton UNL
• 1983 Ed Banach 190
• 1997 Lincoln McIlravy 150 (current 157)
• 2005 Greg Jones 184
• 2006 Jake Rosholt 197
• 2017 J'Den Cox 197

 

 

These years are their last year, not their freshman year, but too late to edit

[PortaJohn]

4 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

look up

?

[Mr. PeanutButter]

Every single wrestler at some point was a lightweight. Wouldn't that make it the best weight/hardest weight to win at?

[Hurricane Wrestling]

2 hours ago, jchapman said:

Dick Hutton won Heavyweight as a true freshman.

  Thanks, Mr. jchapman!