Can Levi Haines realistically win NCAAs this year?

[82bordeaux]

3 minutes ago, LIV4GOD said:

He never lost control.  If you get behind someone and one of their hands just touches, it's a TD. If he had the legs and the guy landed on his butt, it's instantly a TD. He actually threw him in a more control positioned (the waist) and he landed on his butt/back.  He never lost control as they continued out of bounds. If that's not two, then it's bad for the sport. 

He was not behind. If he had been behind him, and the same thing happened it would have been a TD.

Those are the rules as written. Reaction time applies unless you are in the rear standing position. You can't have referees deciding a rule is bad for the sport and making their own calls. Well, Angel Rivera does.

[VakAttack]

He could win it, but I think AOC is a pretty heavy favorite in my estimation.  Just one man's opinion, but I just don't see any of the guys in the current crop beating him.  Haines when he's had a few years to develop physically might be able to handle that level of physicality. 

[gimpeltf]

43 minutes ago, LIV4GOD said:

He never lost control.  If you get behind someone and one of their hands just touches, it's a TD. If he had the legs and the guy landed on his butt, it's instantly a TD. He actually threw him in a more control positioned (the waist) and he landed on his butt/back.  He never lost control as they continued out of bounds. If that's not two, then it's bad for the sport. 

I went back to look again at how this sequence started.

This is NOT a hand touch situation.

At the EIWA coaches meeting Friday night, our head official gave a great explanation of that rule. You must start in a position where you would otherwise be able to get a rear standing reversal. And the picture in the rule book first shows that position and then where the wrestler leans forward and touches a hand.

What happened here was that Robb locked in a slightly off center chest to chest position.

[VakAttack]

This TD has reaction time, it's not like the hand touch situation.

[jajensen09]

3 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I went back to look again at how this sequence started.

This is NOT a hand touch situation.

At the EIWA coaches meeting Friday night, our head official gave a great explanation of that rule. You must start in a position where you would otherwise be able to get a rear standing reversal. And the picture in the rule book first shows that position and then where the wrestler leans forward and touches a hand.

What happened here was that Robb locked in a slightly off center chest to chest position.

Soo what. It's how he finished. 2 all day everyday no matter what! Worst call I've ever seen

[VakAttack]

1 minute ago, jajensen09 said:

Soo what. It's how he finished. 2 all day everyday no matter what! Worst call I've ever seen

Is this a bit?  It feels like it's a bit at this point.

[1032004]

52 minutes ago, LIV4GOD said:

He never lost control.  If you get behind someone and one of their hands just touches, it's a TD. If he had the legs and the guy landed on his butt, it's instantly a TD. He actually threw him in a more control positioned (the waist) and he landed on his butt/back.  He never lost control as they continued out of bounds. If that's not two, then it's bad for the sport. 

Wait you’re serious?  I thought you were just trolling Jimmy when you said Robb “never left the cylinder”

I agree with no takedown.  Didn’t have control in bounds beyond reaction time if you watch it in real time.  Reaction time doesn’t happen in slow motion

[Dogbone]

While I understand the no reaction time argument, there needs to be common sense.   Levi is on his butt with Robbs arms locked around his waist, there is no reaction that is going to help him avoid a TD except to roll over an pretend a wizzer has an impact. If they are in the center, Robb doesn't drag his feet/hips to stay in and and covers hips immediately and its 2!   If we want to create action/scoring, you can't let the out of bounds save guys from "reaction time"

[1032004]

3 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

While I understand the no reaction time argument, there needs to be common sense.   Levi is on his butt with Robbs arms locked around his waist, there is no reaction that is going to help him avoid a TD except to roll over an pretend a wizzer has an impact. If they are in the center, Robb doesn't drag his feet/hips to stay in and and covers hips immediately and its 2!   If we want to create action/scoring, you can't let the out of bounds save guys from "reaction time"

So your argument is bad rule, correct call

[Dogbone]

5 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

So your argument is bad rule, correct call

No, my argument is the rule should be applied using common sense.  I know, it's a crazy thought on the internet.

If someone gets a clear TD with :01 left, its still a TD even if there wasn't enough time for reaction time.   

If there is clear TD inbounds but not enough reaction time before they go out of bounds it doesn't change the position or the control. 

[LIV4GOD]

39 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

I went back to look again at how this sequence started.

This is NOT a hand touch situation.

At the EIWA coaches meeting Friday night, our head official gave a great explanation of that rule. You must start in a position where you would otherwise be able to get a rear standing reversal. And the picture in the rule book first shows that position and then where the wrestler leans forward and touches a hand.

What happened here was that Robb locked in a slightly off center chest to chest position.

And this lock around the waist is superior to being locked around the legs, as far as control.  And he proves it by throwing him to his back/butt.  It's so much control it would be awesome if it folkstyle awarded more points for this throw, but, alas, it doesn't.  And he even keeps control as they go out of bounds. as far as folkstyle is concerned.  Bad call.  

[LIV4GOD]

36 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Wait you’re serious?  I thought you were just trolling Jimmy when you said Robb “never left the cylinder”

I agree with no takedown.  Didn’t have control in bounds beyond reaction time if you watch it in real time.  Reaction time doesn’t happen in slow motion

Rob had control while he was still in the cylinder.  Never lost it. 

[Threadkilla]

I think Carter Starocci had a a more concise takedown on Labriola in the first.         

[82bordeaux]

37 minutes ago, Dogbone said:

No, my argument is the rule should be applied using common sense.  I know, it's a crazy thought on the internet.

If someone gets a clear TD with :01 left, its still a TD even if there wasn't enough time for reaction time.   

If there is clear TD inbounds but not enough reaction time before they go out of bounds it doesn't change the position or the control. 

So you are saying a good referee would ignore the clear written rule on the definition of control, and use his "common sense" instead?

I don't see any downside here at all.

[1032004]

36 minutes ago, LIV4GOD said:

Rob had control while he was still in the cylinder.  Never lost it. 

Never had it beyond reaction time while still in the cylinder 

[JeanGuy]

This would be a place that the freestyle rule would be helpful.

[82bordeaux]

2 minutes ago, JeanGuy said:

This would be a place that the freestyle rule would be helpful.

Exactly. Then by rule it would be 2. Again the key phrase is "by rule".

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

Even noted PSU homer Willie thinks this was a clear TD

Edited March 6, 2023 by Jimmy Cinnabon

[LIV4GOD]

31 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Never had it beyond reaction time while still in the cylinder 

Are you telling me that if he had him by the knees and he fell back on his butt with 2 seconds left, and never lost the legs, it wouldn't be 2?

[PortaJohn]

8 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Even noted PSU homer Willie thinks this was a clear TD

And noted Iowa homer Cody Goodwin said it was the correct call.  What's your point Jimmy

 

[82bordeaux]

12 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Even noted PSU homer Willie thinks this was a clear TD

Willie is a Nebraska fan. He has made that pretty clear.

[gimpeltf]

1 hour ago, LIV4GOD said:

And this lock around the waist is superior to being locked around the legs, as far as control.  And he proves it by throwing him to his back/butt.  It's so much control it would be awesome if it folkstyle awarded more points for this throw, but, alas, it doesn't.  And he even keeps control as they go out of bounds. as far as folkstyle is concerned.  Bad call.  

And your entire argument here is irrelevant. IT ISN'T A HAND TOUCH SITUATION! You need reaction time. So the argument revolves around when to call control. You can't do that from standing. And then you have to factor in Haines reacting away. If he had hip heisted out, it wouldn't have been a td. The fact that he didn't is irrelevant to when you would wait to determine that he didn't. And with the ref's leg in the way we can't really see when Robb's feet left the cylinder.

[gimpeltf]

4 minutes ago, 82bordeaux said:

Willie is a Nebraska fan. He has made that pretty clear.

You mean HuskerDu?

[Jimmy Cinnabon]

6 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

And your entire argument here is irrelevant. IT ISN'T A HAND TOUCH SITUATION! You need reaction time. So the argument revolves around when to call control. You can't do that from standing. And then you have to factor in Haines reacting away. If he had hip heisted out, it wouldn't have been a td. The fact that he didn't is irrelevant to when you would wait to determine that he didn't. And with the ref's leg in the way we can't really see when Robb's feet left the cylinder.

Ok, so let's say with 3 seconds left Robb shoots and has both of Haines' knees or ankles.  Haines fall backward and at 0:01 left his butt hits the mat.  Robb is hugging both legs and Haines is sitting up.  Are you claiming this is no TD because you have to give Haines time to react?

[gimpeltf]

10 minutes ago, Jimmy Cinnabon said:

Ok, so let's say with 3 seconds left Robb shoots and has both of Haines' knees or ankles.  Haines fall backward and at 0:01 left his butt hits the mat.  Robb is hugging both legs and Haines is sitting up.  Are you claiming this is no TD because you have to give Haines time to react?

You definitely live up to your reputation here. Never said anything remotely resembling that. All I said was he needs time to react. I didn't say how long that is. That's up to the official and the situation.