Leg cradle?

[TexRef]

I saw a kid hit a leg cradle a few weeks ago and the ref stopped it for unsportsman like conduct. I didn't agree with his call, but it was his not mine. 

Thoughts?

 

[Gus]

4 hours ago, TexRef said:

I saw a kid hit a leg cradle a few weeks ago and the ref stopped it for unsportsman like conduct. I didn't agree with his call, but it was his not mine. 

Thoughts?

 

Sounds silly to stop a legitimate scoring position because you feel bad for the kid being turned. 

[JVStateChamp]

7 hours ago, Gus said:

Sounds silly to stop a legitimate scoring position because you feel bad for the kid being turned. 

Unsportmanlike conduct could have been if the wrestler was taunting or mocking their opponent, I have seen this happen in positions such as a leg cradle. That position is 100% legal and should not be stopped. But with an unsportmanlike conduct rather than an illegal move hold that sounds as tho this could be the case. I was not their so I could be wrong.

[TexRef]

15 minutes ago, JVStateChamp said:

Unsportmanlike conduct could have been if the wrestler was taunting or mocking their opponent, I have seen this happen in positions such as a leg cradle. That position is 100% legal and should not be stopped. But with an unsportmanlike conduct rather than an illegal move hold that sounds as tho this could be the case. I was not their so I could be wrong.

Now when a kid hit the leg cradle and started doing push ups, then I understand calling that kid for unsportsman like conduct. 

[BobDole]

Let's be honest, if you are doing a leg cradle you are doing to it to be a jerk. That's cool that you can do it to a kid you are much more superior than, but lets see you do it against a state placer or champ then you can showboat.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

30 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Let's be honest, if you are doing a leg cradle you are doing to it to be a jerk. That's cool that you can do it to a kid you are much more superior than, but lets see you do it against a state placer or champ then you can showboat.

Agreed.  One very rare exception:  This year, I watched as a kid who was down 10-0 successfully hit a leg cradle in a scramble.  The opponent worked his way off his back, but looked as if someone had taken his batteries out.  He just had no energy.   The score was now 10-5, and the leg cradler then immediately hits a crossface cradle to win by pin in the third.  The other wrestler stumbled off the mat, embarrassed and perhaps broken.  I have no doubt he was the better wrestler, but fell victim to some unfortunate circumstances.

Otherwise, yeah... you're generally a jerk.

[boconnell]

On 2/10/2023 at 5:56 AM, BobDole said:

Let's be honest, if you are doing a leg cradle you are doing to it to be a jerk. That's cool that you can do it to a kid you are much more superior than, but lets see you do it against a state placer or champ then you can showboat.

Can you penalize being a jerk?  Should you?  Should we penalize all moves that you can't do against a state champ?

[gimpeltf]

2 hours ago, boconnell said:

Can you penalize being a jerk?  Should you?  Should we penalize all moves that you can't do against a state champ?

Yes to the first two. It's called unsportsmanlike conduct.

[Jason Bryant]

Let's be honest, if you are doing a leg cradle you are doing to it to be a jerk. That's cool that you can do it to a kid you are much more superior than, but lets see you do it against a state placer or champ then you can showboat.

My college roommate was a junker, but ranked 5th in the country. He hit this move quite a bit at the Division I level, even at the NCAA tournament. Had a bad tournament and went 2-2, but it’s not always a showboat move.

[boconnell]

4 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Yes to the first two. It's called unsportsmanlike conduct.

This is a disingenuous answer.  You pretending that being a jerk is equal to unsportsmanlike conduct is playing make believe.  Tons of stuff is being a jerk but doesn't come close to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. 

The actual rule says unsportsmanlike conduct,

includes, but is not limited to, such acts as failure to comply with the direction of the referee, pushing, shoving, swearing, taunting, intimidation, baiting an opponent, throwing ear guards or any other equipment, spitting, the clearing of the nasal passage in other than the proper receptacle, repeatedly dropping to one knee to break locked hands, indicating displeasure with a call, failure to keep shoulder straps up while on the mat and failure to comply with the end-of-match procedure.

The closest application for a leg cradle (or for being a jerk in general) would be taunting or intimidation.  But any ref that is trying to parse evil intent from appropriate actions is guilty of massive overreach.  If the wrestler isn't actually doing something wrong, it is not the job of the ref to try to figure out if the right actions somehow have wrong intent.

 

Edited February 19, 2023 by boconnell

[gimpeltf]

7 hours ago, boconnell said:

This is a disingenuous answer.  You pretending that being a jerk is equal to unsportsmanlike conduct is playing make believe.  Tons of stuff is being a jerk but doesn't come close to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. 

The actual rule says unsportsmanlike conduct,

includes, but is not limited to, such acts as failure to comply with the direction of the referee, pushing, shoving, swearing, taunting, intimidation, baiting an opponent, throwing ear guards or any other equipment, spitting, the clearing of the nasal passage in other than the proper receptacle, repeatedly dropping to one knee to break locked hands, indicating displeasure with a call, failure to keep shoulder straps up while on the mat and failure to comply with the end-of-match procedure.

The closest application for a leg cradle (or for being a jerk in general) would be taunting or intimidation.  But any ref that is trying to parse evil intent from appropriate actions is guilty of massive overreach.  If the wrestler isn't actually doing something wrong, it is not the job of the ref to try to figure out if the right actions somehow have wrong intent.

 

Wow, just wow 

[scourge165]

16 hours ago, boconnell said:

This is a disingenuous answer.  You pretending that being a jerk is equal to unsportsmanlike conduct is playing make believe.  Tons of stuff is being a jerk but doesn't come close to the level of unsportsmanlike conduct. 

The actual rule says unsportsmanlike conduct,

includes, but is not limited to, such acts as failure to comply with the direction of the referee, pushing, shoving, swearing, taunting, intimidation, baiting an opponent, throwing ear guards or any other equipment, spitting, the clearing of the nasal passage in other than the proper receptacle, repeatedly dropping to one knee to break locked hands, indicating displeasure with a call, failure to keep shoulder straps up while on the mat and failure to comply with the end-of-match procedure.

The closest application for a leg cradle (or for being a jerk in general) would be taunting or intimidation.  But any ref that is trying to parse evil intent from appropriate actions is guilty of massive overreach.  If the wrestler isn't actually doing something wrong, it is not the job of the ref to try to figure out if the right actions somehow have wrong intent.

 

I think a Leg Cradle is just being a douche. There are VERY rare examples.

But I agree with this 100%. 

Brent Metcalf wouldn't have made it through a match!

 

8 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Wow, just wow 

Could you add more. I'm not sure what you disagree with here. Are you suggesting he's misinterpreting your words? 

Because he's right...and there are plenty of refs who needs to make themselves the center of attention. Not the good ones, but if you're calling a unsportsmanlike on a leg cradle just because you don't approve, I would say that's not doing a great job.

[gimpeltf]

On 2/19/2023 at 2:05 AM, boconnell said:

Can you penalize being a jerk?  Should you?  Should we penalize all moves that you can't do against a state champ?

 

13 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Wow, just wow 

4 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Could you add more. I'm not sure what you disagree with here. Are you suggesting he's misinterpreting your words? 

Because he's right...and there are plenty of refs who needs to make themselves the center of attention. Not the good ones, but if you're calling a unsportsmanlike on a leg cradle just because you don't approve, I would say that's not doing a great job.

Read his first comment. That's what I was responding to. Can you penalize? Of course you can. Should you? Of course you should. Then when he asks the third question. Should we penalize all moves you can't do against a state champ- not necessarily. That has nothing to do with the first two questions. Then he starts ranting and raving and moving the goalposts. I responded to what he said not to what he was holding back.

Simple.

[boconnell]

6 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I think a Leg Cradle is just being a douche. There are VERY rare examples.

But I agree with this 100%. 

Brent Metcalf wouldn't have made it through a match!

 

Could you add more. I'm not sure what you disagree with here. Are you suggesting he's misinterpreting your words? 

Because he's right...and there are plenty of refs who needs to make themselves the center of attention. Not the good ones, but if you're calling a unsportsmanlike on a leg cradle just because you don't approve, I would say that's not doing a great job.

I agree a leg cradle is being a douche.  I think any decent coach should deal with a wrestler doing stuff like that.  I don' think a ref should have anything to do with that situation.  

[scourge165]

14 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

 

Read his first comment. That's what I was responding to. Can you penalize? Of course you can. Should you? Of course you should. Then when he asks the third question. Should we penalize all moves you can't do against a state champ- not necessarily. That has nothing to do with the first two questions. Then he starts ranting and raving and moving the goalposts. I responded to what he said not to what he was holding back.

Simple.

I read all the comments. "Being a Jerk" is pretty ambiguous and you're suggesting you should penalize a kid for a leg cradle, correct?

I think the 3rd question was hyperbole for effect, not literally should we penalize a double leg. 

I'll just disagree with the ranting and raving, but...to be clear, are you saying if you see a leg cradle, you're hitting a kid with an unsportsmanlike?