BAC

Can you imagine the atmosphere on the American bus ride as these guys head up to State College? The Bataan Death March on wheels.

Not buying that Alirez is ducking anyone. Remember this is a guy who entered the portal last year, and everyone was all up in arms about it and criticizing him for leaving a small program to chase after the bucks... and he ended staying. That's his reward, a bunch of guys saying he's ducking? When he's got NCAA and US Open titles under his belt? He may not run up the score much but the guy is a terror.

OK, now do THIS year, not two years ago, since the context is how Alirez should be seeded THIS year.

Although I think Alirez would probably beat Bartlett, and I slightly favor him over Mendez too, I think Beau should be the new #1. Both unbeaten and Beau has the stronger strength of schedule, and just beat #1. That's my rationale, but the real reason is the same as BruceyB's: I hate the fact that Bartlett and Mendez should have to face off in the semis for a third time just because Alirez never had to wrestle anyone in the top 10.

Seems like a great hire by USA Wrestling. Was this an open position, or was she specially hired to learn the ropes from, and eventually take over for, Terry Steiner? Either way, I'm guessing this will draw more women to the OTC, and help the sport.

I'm just going by what I saw. Wrestled very tentative. Little follow-through. It's like he didn't think his shots would work. That's what I associate with someone whose confidence is in the crapper. Yes, I'm sure the PSU coaches mix up partners, and I'm sure he's getting plenty of technique training, but there's probably not many guys in the room he can beat right now. What's more, he's a redshirt, so I doubt they're overly concerned about his confidence since he has the whole year to figure it out. I'd think the staff is focused more on the mental state and preparation of the starters. In spot-starting Sealey this weekend, they're using a guy who's right in the middle of the process of getting broken down and rebuilt.

If you don't like the "why is this Wrestler WORSE" than him argument, then stop saying Phillips is better than them. If you were just saying "Chris Phillips was great," no one would argue. He was great! But you literally said "This is the best HS Wrestler. " You wrote that. Don't say it if you can't back it up, or if you can't handle someone showing you why you are wrong.

What I saw in Sealey was a guy with Room Ragdoll Syndrome. Big-shot freshman comes in, and he gets torn apart every day in practice by the more experienced guys who are using him as their takedown dummy. Can you imagine what rolling with Mesenbrink every day must do to your confidence? Probably also Kasak, Haines, Van Ness, maybe Dake. He shoots a single, he gets scored on. Shoots a hi-C, gets scored on. Shoots a double, gets scored on. Ties up, gets scored on. Keeps space, gets scored on. All this stuff that used to work in high school, just doesn't work anymore, and the self-doubt creeps in. His stuff would work on 99% of the wrestling population, but he's wrestling the other 1%. You could see it in his wrestling. I wasn't that he didn't want to be there, it's that he didn't believe in himself. He'd start to shoot a shot, then sort of quit halfway, almost expecting it won't work. Tentative, low confidence, expecting to lose, looking sort of resigned to his fate. Some guys eventually figure it out, find the stuff that works against the other 1%, persevere through the tough times, until they get to a place where they can hold their own. That's Barr, Kasak, Haines, all with massive level-jumps from high school. Other guys... never figure it out. It's too early to say for Sealey. As of now, though, I don't think he's figured it out yet. I'd bet a lot of money that he's getting ragdolled every day in practice. Hope he sticks it out and finds his way to the other side.

I guess. To me, the Strickenberger thing is something where you discipline the kid when it happens, but when you're having a beer with your other coaches that night, you sort of snicker and high five each other. Whereas with the Ridge thing, you don't discipline the kid, but when you're having a beer with your other coaches that night, you just shake your head and bury you face in your hands. I'm probably just a bad person though.

My friend, the respect runs likewise, and I'm going to let you have the last word on this. I'm pretty sure I've exceeded my aggregate word limit anyway. To answer your question, among high schoolers, I've got Gable tops at HWT, and Synder tops at the 215/220 weight class. (As it happens, those are also my picks for senior-level GOATs at 125kg and 97kg, but they both get the high school award GOAT award too for their high school weights.) Absolute monsters.

It's all good brother. No one's saying Phillips sucked. He was obviously very good. You're only hitting resistance because you're not stopping there. You're going beyond that, and saying he had a better high school career than virtually everyone else. He's #2 on your all-time list right? And apparently several other posters on this thread. Fine, but that means you need to line up his career against every other top high schooler, and conclude that all these other guys are *worse* than him. I'll just pick three. Why is Gable Steveson worse than him? While in high school, Gable was unbeaten his last 4 years, won three age-group world titles, 4th in US Open and WTTs (beating multiple college AAs), multiple Fargo titles, won Junior Hodge. He then proved he was as good as advertised by making the NCAA finals the next year. Why is Kyle Snyder worse than him? While in high school, Kyle was 179-0, only taken down once, countless Fargo titles, youngest ever to win a Jr World title, only exhibition loss was 6-3 to Russian 6x World/Olympic champ Gatsalov as an 18 year old senior. He then proved he was as good as advertised by making the NCAA finals the next year and winning a senior world title at 19, the youngest ever. Why is Marcus Blaze worse than him? An Ohio boy, he's still trucking, with 3 Ohio state titles and multiple Fargo stop signs, his last loss at Ironman in OT a couple years ago as a soph (like Phillips). But since then, last year he beat NCAA #1-ranked and returning runner-up Ramos at a college folkstyle tournament, then took 3rd at Olympic Trials and 2nd at Senior WTTs, beating NCAA champs Megaludis, Garrett and Gross, plus 4x NCAA runner up (and Sr. World silver) Fix, before narrowly falling to the defending world champ Arujau, plus a Jr World bronze (losing only to Sr World champ Ono). That's all before his high school senior year. So tell me, what's your case for why all three of these guys are *worse* than Chris Phillips? What did Phillips do that dwarfs the accomplishments of these other guys?

Maybe it's just me but I distinguish between "most cringe" and "most unsportsmanlike." For example, the Strickenberger celebration may well cross the line to unsportamanlike, but it's also kind of badass, despite being disrespectful. When I think "cringe," I think Ferrari's flex + "665lb deadlift baby," or whatever the hell that is that Ridge was doing. Not unsportsmanlike, but I literally cringed. If I had to vote, I'd give it to Ridge.

I'm with you on Kolat. Although I agree with Billy that others have surpassed his accomplishments, when you factor in what he did relative to his time, there's a good case to have him #1. I'm not with you on Phillips. I'm sorry to keep beating this drum, but I really don't get where you guys are coming from on Phillips. He has zero Junior National freestyle titles or AA finishes, zero NHSCA folkstyle titles or AA finishes, zero Cadet or Junior world medals, zero age-group world teams qualified for, zero wins in the US Open. To be fair, he also didn't compete in these events. (Well, he tried out for FILA Cadets one year, but got pinned by Corey Peltier.) But we can't just hand him wins he didn't earn. That's the definition of "hype." How about his wins? Has he beaten any NCAA champions while in high school? Any NCAA All-Americans? Any college wrestlers at all? No, no, and no. Just other high schoolers. So how can you possibly put him above all these scores of guys who, as high schoolers, secured wins over college AAs, raked in international medals, and won national tournaments where the age wasn't capped at 16? I truly don't see the argument. All he has to his credit is a high school record with one official loss. That's nice, but in the context of "best ever," they're a dime a dozen. Ever hear of Cody Miller? He finished his high school career last year undefeated (143-0 in Washington). Is he best ever, since he has one less loss than Phillips? How about Peyton Ellis? Last year, he finished his high school career undefeated too, in Rhode Island. Is he better than Phillips? Best ever? Never mind that Miller decided to become a jeweler rather than wrestle in college, and Ellis went D-III, since college is "immaterial" according to you. Right here is a 20-year-old list of several dozen more undefeated high school wrestlers, there's been dozens more since then, but Phillips has to be behind all of them, right? And this is without getting to the even-longer list of one-loss high school wrestlers. If you say "yeah but who did they beat," then I say: My point exactly. See above. Phillips' hit-list is wafer thin, as are his out-of-season accomplishments, compared to the long list of guys that deserve to be ahead of Phillips. I'd be more open-minded to the Phillips argument if, despite seldom straying from his tiny school in Ohio's small-school division, he went on to wrestle D1 and, say, made the finals or won his freshman year on college. Then at least we could say, "dang, despite not wrestling or beating anyone well-known his last 2-3 years in high school, he must have been REALLY good since he was in the D1 natty finals just a year later." Let's call it the "Lincoln McIlravy exception," based on the relatively little-known high schooler who went unbeaten in tiny South Dakota, but won NCAAs as a true freshman, so suddenly he's in the "best high schooler ever" conversation. But that didn't happen. Phillips went to UNC, didn't work out for whatever reason, went to Ohio State, didn't work out for whatever reason there, either. Not sure if he had any college wins at all. Look, you're entitled to your opinion, you can put him wherever you want on your list. But if we're going off facts, he's definitely not top 100, and probably not top 200. He's not even in my top 10 of Ohio wrestlers.

Bear in mind that's Cadets, which is 16 & under. That's kind of my point: he excelled when he was on the young side of high school. I don't think he ever competed at the Junior level, and generally stayed away from national level tournaments after his freshman year. He won his Ohio D-III matches, and I think won another Ironman title, but has no signature wins to point to after beating Roddy (a guy who never AA'd). Not sure what happened at NC State / tOSU, but no wins there either. I'm not an Ohio guy, but it's interesting to me that the Ohio contingent has Phillips so high, when there are so many other great Ohio high schoolers to pick from. Dustin Schlatter was a terror and won NCAAs as a true freshman. Alan Fried was legendary. Lee Kemp was a late starter but beat Gable when he (Kemp) was only 18. Stieber and Taylor were legends, winning just about everything, Stieber placed at the US Open, and both were NCAA finalists as RS freshmen. Marcus Blaze is only a junior and might be the best high schooler of the bunch. Heck, I'd probably have CP Schlatter and the Palmer brothers above Phillips, and maybe Rowlands too. Still a hammer, though. I definitely remember what a stir he caused his freshman year. Seemed like a good kid too. Hope life has worked out OK for him.

Phillips lost to Ruth at Disney Duals (offseason) and again at Ironman. I may be misremembering but I think the Disney loss was his freshman year (either the summer before or after), and then in the Ironman semis as a sophomore. Based on those results, people like to analogize him to Ruth's excellent college career, but the reality is Ruth level-jumped once he got to PSU. He was really raw in high school, never winning a PA state title or even making the finals. He transferred to Blair as a senior, and reached #1 in his weight, but was a very different (better) wrestler two years later. If Phillips had level-jumped as Ruth did, he might have been an all-time great, but it just never happened. I don't mean to sound like I'm down on him. Still one of the best freshman upperweights ever. Some guys just peak early, and/or face obstacles later in their career that keep them from developing further. Sort of reminds me of Kenny Courts.

If we were talking about all-time best high school freshmen, I think Phillips would be in the conversation, especially among upperweights. There aren't too many freshmen who've been top 2 or 3 in the country in a higher weight class. He might be top 10, even top 5, among high school freshmen upperweights. That said, I don't think he can be considered among the top high schoolers overall. He plateaued. For all his potential as a freshman, most agree he didn't get better. Even as a freshman, he did lose to Ruth. Actually he was 0-2 against Ruth, including offseason. He didn't have any international accomplishments that would show he was better than any other wrestler with a mostly-unbeaten high school career. He doesn't have any wins over senior level guys or college AAs. And his college career was over before it started, so there's no frame of reference there, either. He'd kick my butt, that's for sure, but personally I wouldn't have him top 100 among high school wrestlers overall. I mean, at minimum he'd be behind Ruth, who also probably isn't top 100.

It's kinda old, but here is a ranking of top 20 high school wresters from 1986-2007. (It has Kolat #1.) Since then, there's been several guys whose accomplishments are on par with Kolat. The main argument for putting Kolat on the top of a "best high school ever" list is that his accomplishments were at a time it was extremely rare for a high schooler to be that good. The tip of the spear of high school wrestlers is much pointer now than it was then. There just wasn't the same access to top-level techniques then as there is now, and training year-round is a relatively modern development. Kolat was an bigger outlier than these other guys. Think Babe Ruth: he doesn't currently hold the single-season HR record, but he hit 60 HRs in a season when the record was 27 when he started. To be fair, even in Kolat's time, there were probably other high school guys who were as or nearly as good as he was, but we didn't have the same sort of national-level tournaments or access to college and international tournaments. Think Lincoln McIlravy, who won NCAAs as a true freshman. (Or earlier: look at Kolat's own hero, Jimmy Carr, who made the Olympic team at 17.) Today, though, there's usually a few high schoolers each year who would be legit AA contenders in college, and they are easier to identify. Bassett, Forrest, Duke and Blaze would probably all be favored to AA right now. Blaze's accomplishments in particular are at least on a par with Kolat. That said, some of the guys being discussed shouldn't even be in the conversation. I mean... Chris Phillips? Come on, that's like saying Cody Gardner or David Craig, all guys who had a lot of high school hype but never panned out college and don't have any international accomplishments to point to. There's thousands of guys with multiple state titles and just a handful of high school losses, but that doesn't tell us much. Personally, the criteria I'd use to determine the best high school wrestlers would be (1) wins over top-tier college or international competition while still in high school, and (2) performance as a freshman in college (as a frame of reference). That's the only way to separate guys out. In recent years, that points to guys like Spencer Lee, Mark Hall, Gable Steveson, Kyle Snyder, David Taylor, Yianni D, Logan Stieber, Kyle Dake, and so on.

You're right, I'm misremembering. From a quick google search, the Cross match was at the 1991 US Open, and though Cross won, Kolat took it to him at the start. Match here. I guess Kolat would've been a high school sophomore at the time? You can see a snippet of his 7-6 loss to Steve Knight at the '92 OTTs here.

It's a pretty good comparison, and tough to make a pick between Bassett and Kolat. Both have wide-open styles as high schoolers that leave them exposed, but it doesn't matter, since their offensive output is so high that they overwhem(ed) their opponents. Both are famous for training like absolute madmen. Both dominated PA high school wrestling, making wreckage of past state champs and medalists. Both also had freestyle success. Both cadet world champs. Both had success against college opposition in high school. Kolat took 3rd and 4th at Midlands when it was the best tournament of the year, including taking out NCAA finalist Shawn Charles. Bassett has won a couple smaller college tournaments, including one with Bouzakis in it, and has a freestyle win over NCAA champ Ashnault. Both are human. The main chink in Kolat's armor is his 4-4 draw as a senior to Chris Bono at the Dapper Dan. (He went up a weight at Senior Nationals the next weekend to avenge the loss, but Bono didn't make the finals.) Got thumped at OTTs by Kendall Cross (future gold medalist). Bassett has more chinks -- teched by Kolozik, lost at U20s, split matches with Zepeda -- but also lives in an era where there's more opportunities to find the top competition. In college, Kolat made the national finals as a true freshman, taking out Iowa's undefeated defending champ Troy Steiner in the semis. Bassett's true freshman year? Yet to be seen. Both are trailblazers. The country had never seen a high schooler taking on and beating college-level competition when Kolat did it; now it's more common. But Bo's shown leadership qualities in his own right, albeit more by force of personality. (Kolat was always more of a recluse.) Of course, wrestling's come a long way in the 35 years between the two, not just in technique but in access to information (internet, etc), so I don't doubt that Bassett as a high school junior is ahead of Kolat as a high school junior. But I don't think it's fair to factor that in, as the opposite would be true if they swapped the eras they grew up in. Bottom line? I'd call it a draw.

Fair enough brother. Cheers.

Definitely no lack of high-end freestyle training partners at 57kg/61kg either... Gilman, Fix, RBY, Spratley. Hard to fault his choice.

I'm all for trolling overzealous fans, I really am. But you picked a pretty tough angle of attack here. I'm glad Spencer medaled. NLWC accounted for two medals in 2024 (Brooks, Dake) to HWC's one, but even that doesn't begin to tell the story. Fully two-thirds of the men's freestyle Olympians (Brooks, Zain, Dake, Snyder) were NLWC. Just Lee for HWC. Fully two-thirds of the Olympic alternates were NLWC (N Lee, Taylor, Gilman, Nolf). None for HWC. The finals of the trials was basically a NLWC intra-squad dual meet. Overall medals too. Of the finalists, HWC athletes accounted for just the one medal, while the NLWC finalists accounted for about 28. Probably a third of those medals were when some the athletes were with their prior clubs, but it's still a whole bunch to just Spencer (and give HWC Gilman's 2017 medal too.) A bunch of other NLWC athletes made deep runs too, but can you even name any other HWC athletes at OTTs? I think maybe Marinelli was there, who's retired now. Is that it? Maybe Cassioppi? Did he win a match? Can you even name any other HWC athletes? I remember a few guys got steamrolled at the Last Chance Qualifier. Maybe they should rename the HWC to the SLC (Spencer Lee Club). And don't get me started on Spencer, one of my favorites. How many times did Hawk coaches prioritize their NCAA aspirations over Lee's health and USA's success? They inherited a 3x age-group world champion, and he didn't see the international mats again until last year. I'm glad to see him take silver but with his two bum knees, I don't think anyone expects him to be on the mats much longer. I already made the argument in another thread (before he made his choice) that Iowa was probably the right pick for Bassett, given my understanding of his main goal (e.g. to be the main face of a program and build his brand). But if freestyle success were his top goal, I don't think there's any serious question he's at the wrong place. You don't need to be a PSU fanboy to know that.

My money's on Iowa. Okie State is the sexy choice with DT pulling in an army of top recruits, but I don't see the relationships that would make them stand out to Bo. PSU is both the safe choice and likely the best choice to reach his full potential, but I'm not sure that aligns with Bo's brand-building goals, as he wouldn't really stand apart from other PSU studs. V-Tech is the underdog choice, but lacks the wrestling-frenzy atmosphere or fan base. But Iowa checks all the boxes. What they lack in talent development, they make up for in having a devoted fan base who'd treat him like a celebrity, and which is anxiously looking for their next Spencer, not just a one-year wonder via the portal. It's also a program that for years has lacked an ambassador for its "Iowa Style" brand, and would no doubt be willing to rebuild it around Bo's "machine guy" branding. The brands have some similarity too, both emphasizing pace/stamina/hard work over style/technique/talent, and Bo can embody the virtues of that prioritization. Bottom line is he can be a star in Iowa City in a way he wouldn't be at any other school. The coaches shoveling his steps at 5am probably also showed they're willing to cater (if not subjugate themselves) to him in a way that some of the other coaching staffs won't, at least not to that degree. Truth is, Iowa needs Bo far more than any of these other "final four" programs need him, and I suspect that's come out in the recruiting process. Wherever he lands, I'll root for him. He seems like a good kid. Part of me wishes he'd go to PSU as I think his ceiling is highest there, but I do see why Iowa is a sensible choice for what he says is important to him, and parity is a good thing too.

I wish I had. I didn't like it at all. The rules permitted it, but I suspect the reason for and spirit of the rule was to allow wrestlers to go for the pin, a higher team point value than a tech. Saitiev clearly wasn't going for the pin. Watching the match, it was unclear to me whether he was trying to humiliate the guy or was just using the early-round match to work out the kinks in his own game (which I'd have been OK with), but the post-match smirk told me it was the former. I'm glad they changed the rule.

I watched that match live at MSG. Afterward, Satiev climbed up into the stands just a few feet away from me, where the rest of the Russia contingent was. I’ll never forget the smirk on his face as he exchanged glances with his teammates. Left my stomach feeling unsettled. I wouldn’t be surprised if that match was the reason FILA made the tech automatic rather than optional.