BAC

Seems harsh. The kid wants to start. Maybe he has goals of being a 4x AA. Is everyone who transfers because they want a better shot at starting "mentally weak"? He could think he'd win 3 of 4 against Welsh, but I'm guessing he's no dummy -- he knows he could also drop some against a NCAA runner-up. Personally I'd pick Ryder over Welsh. Hope we see it next year.

LOL. No need to be so vague, what exactly did those cheaters at PSU "almost definitely" do in this (as you call it) "classic Lance Armstrong situation," and what's your evidence? Surely there must be some objective basis to accuse impugn them and Welsh beyond Basch's premature call, no? Looks to me that Welsh wanted to come so he came, which made Ryder want to leave so he left. But clearly you are aware of some nefarious "poaching" going on so maybe you can lay it out for us?

I wonder how this is going to go down for the schools who have way more than 30? Especially since only a fraction of the guys at risk of being cut are in the portal. One possibility is some guys are transferring but not using the portal to do it. There's very few guys who aren't good enough to make the 30-man roster cut, but still good enough to attract a scholarship offer from another school. So for those guys, if they really want to wrestle, can't they just forego the portal and transfer to another school where they think they can walk-on and make the team? Another possibility is the schools are devising a workaround, so there won't actually be any cuts. Back in the day, my college coach walked in one day and said "Due to Title IX we have to cap our roster. It won't impact you, but from now on, half of you will be on the varsity team, and half on our newly-created club team. We'll all practice together." Everyone shrugged and went back to practicing. It literally had zero impact. Guys who were starters or spot-starters stayed varsity, other were on club, and they'd swap back and forth as needed. Nothing more than an accounting gimmick. Can schools like USU do the same thing now? For example, can Taylor tell these guys, "you're now on the RTC but we'll all keep practicing together as before" and nothing else changes? I'm reading there's no exceptions to the roster caps, but... I wonder. If I'm wrong, then I guess some guys might just quit or get cut next year.

I don't think Zepeda has taken a step back so much as Shaw took a step forward. Shaw wasn't the same guy at the end of the year that he was in the beginning. Bassett v Vega will be awesome, but I think it favors Bassett stylistically.

I'd have to check but I think maybe Glazier started a few duals for Iowa. Might've even picked up a win or two.

Seriously? THAT is your point? LOL. Literally no one on the message board stated definitively what happened. Because, you know, we aren't Welsh/PSU. People expressed opinions, some even identified facts supporting them (shocking, I know), but no one here has any first-hand knowledge so far as I'm aware. So who are you even arguing with? Wait, I thought your point was that no one knows what happened. So why aren't you also annoyed at the people immediately assuming misconduct by PSU/Welsh? You haven't said a peep about that. Your annoyance seems a tad... one-sided, no? In any case, since no one is saying they know for certain PSU/Welsh followed the rules (only expressing that opinion, backed up with facts), it sounds like what you *really* mean by "white knighting for PSU" is "not immediately accusing PSU of violating the rules and Welsh of lying." Maybe you can reword it to clarify that your beef is with people "not defaming PSU/Welsh"? I don't have any evidence that you strangled 17 kittens in broad daylight yesterday. And sure, there may be some facts pointing the other way, some alibis and denials and stuff. BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN YOU DIDN'T DO IT. Just because I don't know what happened, I'm sure not gonna "white knight" you with the assumption you AREN'T a kitten killer. I mean, c'mon Brucey, look how many kittens get killed every year!

They are data points. Some are facts, some are interpretations of facts, but every one is grounded in fact, whereas your accusations are not. You're just questioning peoples' motives. You rely on Basch but even he corrected his tweet when he realized he jumped the gun. Your fact/opinion distinction also lacks substance. When I say Ryder and Welsh are comparable wrestlers, is that an opinion? Sure. Is it grounded in fact? Yes, based on Ryder's record/wins -- and I'm yet to hear a single person interpret the data differently. Similarly, is everything Welsh says necessarily factually true? Don't know, but his saying it is a fact, and there's no one with first-hand knowledge saying otherwise. Bottom line is you're simply rejecting all the data and preferring an entirely made-up conclusion, instead -- if I'm reading you correctly -- accusing wrestlers of lying, coaches of cheating and rule-breaking, saying PSU is "just like Lance Armstrong," and so on, all because (so far as I can tell) PSU is your school's rival. Depends what "game" you're talking about. Trying to nab the best talent from the portal? Absolutely. Donors using NIL funds as a carrot? Yup. Coaches contacting wrestlers enrolled at other schools (or directing others to contact them) before the portal window opens, unsolicited, to try to broker a deal for them to transfer to their school? No. That's not the "game." That's a serious recruiting violation, and if caught leads to firings/dismissal, fines, probation, suspension. Does it still happen? With some schools, apparently so. It sounds like you think Iowa is complicit. Is that why you're so quick to trot out the "everyone else is doing it too" defense? I dunno, but just because some are guilty, doesn't mean all of them are. To be clear, none of this is about defending PSU. Were they guilty, or even if there were serious evidence of it, I'd be the first to dogpile on them. I certainly don't think they operate on some higher ethical plane than everyone else. But I do think the vast majority of schools try to follow the rules (muddy as they are), including PSU, if only because the consequences of not doing so (and getting caught) are cataclysmic. But sure. Stick with the "PSU contacted Welsh long ago and convinced him/bribed him to transfer, and now he's lying about it while PSU covers it up" narrative. Free speech is a wonderful thing, though I think you're wise to maintain that "it's my opinion not a fact" disclaimer when you do it.

Just as I thought. You're incapable of identifying one specific thing I said that you disagree with (or any facts to support it), and are incapable of stating what actually caused Welsh to go to PSU if not what he said (or any facts to support it). Just smears, hyperbole and ad hominem attacks.

Sounds like you're just throwing rocks from the sidelines. What specifically did I say that you disagree with, and what specifically is your take, and the facts that support it?

It isn't my intention to question Vak's character, and I disavow that implication. I like Vak and think he is a good dude. But I think a fair reading of his comments is that he's accusing PSU of having intentionally induced Welsh's entry into the transfer with improper conduct, which would be a recruiting violation and highly unethical. That, to me, is a bridge too far and ought not be done without solid basis.

Well, you're not entirely wrong. I don't want PSU to be engaging in recruiting violations, I don't want their coaches conspiring to act unethically, I don't want wrestlers telling bald-faced lies to the public. But it's not PSU-specific. I don't want ANY school or ANY coach or ANY wrestler to be engaging in that conduct, and I'm definitely not going to presume it or make accusations without real facts. Here, there's just no evidence of it, and all facts point the other way. I think you know that too. Honestly, it sounds to me that you're still kind of salty about accusations people made last year about Iowa's transfers which you think are unjust. You're probably right about many of them, as people are quick to accuse Iowa of recruiting violations too. So I guess this is your payback? I dunno Vak. I'm all for pointing out hypocrisy, but I'm just not sure that making baseless allegations against other schools is the best way to go, especially when you're calling into question the integrity of the coaches and honesty of the wrestlers. That's just spite, and I think you're better than that.

One, the fact that PSU had Ryder, who most see as being on Welsh's level, making it illogical for PSU to affirmatively seek out Welsh as a replacement. Two, the fact that Welsh had a prior history of discontent at OSU that is unrelated to PSU, with a confirmed visit to OSU back in December and Ryan having to publicly quell the fire back. Three, Welsh's stated reason for preferring PSU -- that he wanted a stronger training room -- meshes well with his discontent at OSU, where he asked them to get better RTC guys but they weren't able to. Four, Welsh's own words, disclaiming that PSU was ever a foregone conclusion, but rather was one of a couple of frontrunners at the time. Fifth, the fact that the Mineo "done deal" tweets proved to be false (unless you call Welsh a liar), given his indication that he fielded numerous offers, and given the fact that he didn't commit right away. Sixth, the fact that PSU was offering less $ than other schools. Seventh, the fact that Welsh isn't exactly Cael's "type": all tatted up, a temper, apparently not recruited by PSU in high school. Eight, Starocci's pro-Ryder tweet, and Ryder's later departure, suggest that all of this happened very suddenly from PSU's perspective, as it wasn't pre-vetted with the team or Ryder. Ninth, the general absurdity of the notion that Cael, with a bunch of consecutive titled and strongly favored to win at least the next couple as well, would suddenly throw it all away by engaging in massive recruiting violations that could cost him his job and get him and his team suspended from competition. Tenth, the utter lack of any facts or evidence cutting the other way. Even Ryan, who's quick to whine about virtually everything, hasn't said a single sour word toward PSU about this. *** How about you. Do you have any facts that this was a massive conspiratorial rule-violating poaching of a competitor, planned and executed by those evil cackling PSU miscreant coaches? I'll wait.

Because it's what the facts point to. I think maybe you're just more willing to accuse decent people of massive fraud and recruiting violations than I am, and more willing to assume the existence of sprawling nefarious conspiracies on the thinnest of pretexts. In any case, it's hardly the best version of events for Penn State. They did an even-up trade for a guy who may or may not gel with his teammates, who has one less year of eligibility and has a history as a bit of a hothead, while losing the homegrown recruit. The Starocci tweet suggests they didn't adequately vet it with the team, and the fact that Ryder left suggests they didn't make enough of an effort to secure his buy-in. I'd say it's just about the worst version of events for PSU, unless one is willing to demean themselves with baseless accusations of lying, fraud, violations, conspiracies, etc.

If that's your perspective, then Wyatt is rightly higher on your P4P list. But to my eyes, Gable had him outclassed, but made an error at the end that cost him. Wyatt's hugely closed the gap, and may eventually surpass him, but if I were betting on a rematch, with 4-to-1 odds favoring Gable, I'd still bet Gable.

Maybe this is semantics. I was assuming we're taking off the Hodge "single season only" blinders, and doing a REAL p4p ranking of the wrestlers who competed in 2024-25. In other words, we aren't required to look ONLY at their record for THIS season, and magically forget about everything that happened before. If we do it that way, obviously it's Gable. I agree with you that if we're ranking athletes SOLELY by this season results, then Wyatt has to be ahead of Gable. Just as Gable is behind Owings in '71, and Spencer Lee is 6th in '23. The same is true if P4P rankings have to consider ONLY this season. But if instead we're saying, as of end of 24-25 season, who are the P4P best college wrestlers, based on everything you know, then you have to take into account Gable's past accomplishments, his Olympic title, the conventional wisdom that he's all-time HWT GOAT (or close to it), and Wyatt's comparatively modest accomplishments and prior losses. Of course, Gable's history doesn't mean Wyatt couldn't possibly have surpassed Gable. If you watched that match and thought Wyatt is the better wrestler -- overall, not just on that day -- then Wyatt's ahead, P4P. But I think for most people, when you consider Gable's far stronger track record in conjunction with what you saw with your own eyes in that match -- e.g. Gable's domination until the very end -- one can reasonably conclude that the result, while earned, was a bit flukish, and probably not indicative of overall superiority. Just as you consider Lee's overall resume in evaluating '22-'23, Carter's 5 titles, etc. Again, we do this in everything. It's just using your brain. Gable's never beaten Owings but no one ranks Owings over Gable in a P4P list, even as of '71. Lee hasn't beaten Ramos since getting pinned by him but few put Ramos higher, P4P. And since you bring it up, it's the same in Boxing. Most still thought Tyson was best P4P even after the upset to Douglas. Same with Ali/Spinks, Louis/Schmeling, etc. In boxing as in wrestling, sometimes the guy pulling the upset is legit better overall, but sometimes they just had the better night.

What I mean is that there's two basic kinds of NIL money: (1) the money you get from the school-sanctioned (but not controlled) cooperative/collective, and (2) the separate-money athlete-specific deals, usually used as inducement to transfer. The first kind is what everyone gets -- at least at the larger universities. At PSU, that's Happy Valley United. It's an online store and means if hiring an athlete, but also collects membership funds and donations and uses it to pool money and provides a monthly stipend, the amount of which generally varies by sport. Each school varies, but a (dated) explanation of PSU's is here. The second kind is the Iowa/Bob Nichols stuff, e.g. "Tell Buchanan I'll pay him $500K to stand out front of my slummy apartments for 2 hours holding a 'for rent' sign if he transfers here." (Or whatever happened.) No doubt Starocci got himself one of those deals to stay for a 5th year too. What I'm hypothesizing is that, in Welsh's case, it was probably just the first. When he called and said "I wanna go there" I would imagine PSU said "great, here's what we can give in scholarships next year (if anything), and here's what our NIL collective pays per month." Of course, all of the above is poised to be radically altered with the NCAA/House settlement, and maybe it already is (to some degree), but I'm still getting my arms around that like everyone else.

I'm not saying he didn't earn that win. If I were doing "official" HWT rankings for Flo or whatever, I'd have Hendrickson at #1, because he won. But if someone put a gun to my head and said "who's the best P4P wrestler in the NCAAs, if you get it wrong I'll blow your head off," I'm saying Gable. I think Gable wins that match 8 or 9 times out of 10. But it was Wyatt's night. If you ask me the best P4P wrestler of the '70-71 season, I'll say Gable, not Owings.

I tend to agree, although I don't fault Ryder. Even if PSU did nothing wrong, it's not unreasonable for Ryder to say, "Look, competition's great, but let's be real, the wrestle-off is a coin flip, and one of my goals is to be a 4x AA. I can get good competition at OSU too, and not have to worry about beating out a NCAA runner-up to get my spot." PSU also has to be careful in this situation to not do something that makes Ryder think they prefer Welsh. It's a fine line between PSU just "not saying no" and PSU being perceived by Ryder as going out of their way to lure in Welsh once he expressed his interest.

It's an interesting question what PSU should do in this situation. Let's assume (and I know some question this) that Welsh's transfer was initiated by Welsh, and PSU, knowing he was a luxury but not a need, didn't do much more than say "sure we'd love to have you" without throwing any NIL money at him (at least not beyond what the cooperative pays). Let's also assume that Welsh and Ryder are basically interchangeable. (I think they are.) Questions: --Should PSU have checked with Ryder first? --If they check with him, and he says "I don't want that, I'll transfer if you bring him in," should they let Welsh transfer anyway? Or should they say "Sorry Rocco, we're good, maybe try somewhere else." One answer is that while PSU should give Ryder a courtesy heads up, PSU should bring Welsh in no matter what, on the theory that you should never turn down new talent (unless he's got personal baggage). If a guy doesn't want to compete for their spot, that's counter to the team's open-door philosophy, and they're probably better off elsewhere anyway. But on the other hand, I feel like this is a net loss for PSU. They make an even exchange, Ryder for Welsh, but Welsh has one less year of eligibility, and they don't know how Welsh will gel with the team. And other PSU recruits, especially those who bonded with Ryder, feel unsettled/annoyed, destabilizing the team. I think I lean toward the first answer, but curious what others think.

Not every upset means the other guy's better overall/P4P. 1. Steveson 2. Starocci 3. Mesenbrink 4. Hendrickson 5. Keckeisen 6. Hamiti 7. O'Toole 8. Mendez 9. Buchanan 10. Haines

Horrifying as the concept is, I do sort of like the idea of AJ getting stuck on the bench behind Barr for 3 years...

This one's pretty good.

Vega is a freak. Manhandled two of PA's best in Perry a few months back, and Parkins this past weekend. He's D1 ready now but I do think he'd benefit from a redshirt, and then be part of the '26-'27 OSU team (with Robideau, Lockett, Ross, Forrest, etc) that will be PSU's first real challenge in years.

I'm fine with being in the minority. Heck, I'm doubly in the minority, as I thought Wyatt should get OW (they gave it to Carter) while Carter should get the Hodge (which went to Wyatt). Doesn't mean I'm right -- there's a reasonable case to be made for the other viewpoint -- but being in the minority doesn't mean I'm wrong, either. In any case, being told to look at the "scoreboard," and seeing how every other post you make is a personal attack on Starocci, tells me you're not so much interested in the right person getting these awards, and more interested in it not going to a member of a team you dislike. A tad shallow, don't you think? I get that you're an Iowa fan, but it's a shame you're not a wrestling fan too.

Lol. I'm not specifically saying Carter's 6 pins are more impressive than Wyatt's 13, but I do discount the value of Wyatt's pins somewhat given the weight class he's in. I'd say the same for Parris last year. But it cuts the other way too. I value Hendrickson's techs at HWT a bit more highly than I would if he weren't a HWT, so his 8 vs. Carter's 10 is very impressive. Because it cuts both ways, I'm fine with comparing HWTs and non-HWTs by bonus %. What I don't like is reducing it to a "score," e.g. Hendrickson's "score" is 5.13 vs. 4.89 for Carter (I'm making that up since I don't recall the actual scores), since I think it artificially inflates HWTs over non-HWTs. Stick to bonus %. I think I'm backed up in this point by the fact that WIN used to have separate criteria for "dominance" and "number of pins." The scrapped "number of pins," leaving only "dominance," implicitly recognizing that pins are only one form of dominance and don't merit special attention. What do you think?