Rocco begs for brick before he knew he got the call.

[hummer171]

Last year NCAA semi-final Keckeisen over McEnelly 4-1 SV

[JimmySpeaks]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

It's not that often that you go to OT if you are trying to score in regulation. Typically, you're either going to score or give up a counter score if you're taking risks. I am a big McEnelly fan, but his offensive output has not been much if any better than Welsh or Ferrari this season. I will say that I actually think McEnelly wants to score, and he's struggled getting to his offense where I think Rocco and Ferrari are more likely to actually go through regulation without trying to score.

How many tech falls does McEnelly have this year? (11) Trying to score and taking risks are completely different.  There are four elite wrestlers at 184 and Taking risks against them is stupid.  It’s like you guys don’t think they game plan for him.  

Edited March 9 by JimmySpeaks

[BIGTENFANBOY]

2 hours ago, cl415 said:

I am in favor of no reaction time at this point. Nobody to blame but the refs for this consistently happening. 

It was no reaction time a few years ago and everyone complained just like there are complaints now. Its always going to be a problem one way or another.

[JimmySpeaks]

4 minutes ago, hummer171 said:

Last year NCAA semi-final Keckeisen over McEnelly 4-1 SV

Exactly my point.  Damn good wrestlers at the top of the weight AGAIN this year. 

[4awrestler]

I feel like anytime the 184 quartet of Sinclair, Ferrari, McEnelly and Welsh wrestle each other, I'm going to expect it to be a 1-1 match at the end of regulation about 80% of the time.
It's frustrating since it wasn't so long ago we had 184lbers like Brooks and Keckeisen who would light up the scoreboard every time.

Reminds me of the storely, Evans, kokesh, brown of years ago


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BIGTENFANBOY]

28 minutes ago, BAC said:

I feel like anytime the 184 quartet of Sinclair, Ferrari, McEnelly and Welsh wrestle each other, I'm going to expect it to be a 1-1 match at the end of regulation about 80% of the time.

It's frustrating since it wasn't so long ago we had 184lbers like Brooks and Keckeisen who would light up the scoreboard every time.

Its because they're evenly matched. Brooks and Hidlay were evenly matched earlier and in their first 2 meetings they went to OT so its nit like they lit up the scoreboard against each other. 

Edited March 9 by BIGTENFANBOY

[cl415]

8 minutes ago, BIGTENFANBOY said:

It was no reaction time a few years ago and everyone complained just like there are complaints now. It’s always going to be a problem one way or another.

Huh? It was only no reaction time from rear standing and the hand touches…

[hummer171]

9 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

Exactly my point.  Damn good wrestlers at the top of the weight AGAIN this year. 

Exactly.  In the three matches leading up to last year's semi-final, McEnelly had scored 40 points, Keckeisen 46.  It's tough to rack up points against top competiton.

[MedicineMan]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

It's not that often that you go to OT if you are trying to score in regulation. Typically, you're either going to score or give up a counter score if you're taking risks. I am a big McEnelly fan, but his offensive output has not been much if any better than Welsh or Ferrari this season. I will say that I actually think McEnelly wants to score, and he's struggled getting to his offense where I think Rocco and Ferrari are more likely to actually go through regulation without trying to score.

This is correct. Max is faster and has more agility than Rocco, but when he wrestles Rocco‘s match like he did tonight, his speed and agility are negated. The only way to get Rocco off balance and out of position is to shoot and attack.  

[JimmySpeaks]

Can I get just one Penn State fan to admit it was a TD ?  

[MNRodent]

3 seconds left.

 

1 second left.

 

[Bigbrog]

Should have been a takedown...doesn't matter as Sinclair is going to win it all

[SplitTheG]

1 hour ago, BruceyB said:

It's not that often that you go to OT if you are trying to score in regulation. Typically, you're either going to score or give up a counter score if you're taking risks. I am a big McEnelly fan, but his offensive output has not been much if any better than Welsh or Ferrari this season. I will say that I actually think McEnelly wants to score, and he's struggled getting to his offense where I think Rocco and Ferrari are more likely to actually go through regulation without trying to score.

I mean this is basically the point you were trying to refute me on. McEnelly tries to score. That's the only point I made to begin with.

[BruceyB]

2 hours ago, MNRodent said:

3 seconds left.

I don't think you can (currently) call the takedown until after Welsh rolls. The first picture is a still frame and I don't think you can call that a TD just because Welsh's hand was on the mat for a split second (and I'm conservative when it comes to reaction time), and it's not established control in the second picture because Welsh is mid-roll. 

That's how I see it. And anyone who has ever seen a post where I've talked about Welsh knows that I was pulling for McEnelly hard in that match. Welsh was heady enough to pull that hand up off the mat as soon as McEnelly got behind, and I think it was the right call if the term reaction time is written in the rule. The waters have clearly been muddied this year by some refs calling extended reaction time and some ignoring it completely though, so with different officials, who knows.

[dragit]

2 hours ago, BIGTENFANBOY said:

It was no reaction time a few years ago and everyone complained just like there are complaints now. Its always going to be a problem one way or another.

That is true there were complaints about that rule.  Personally I think they need to go back to no reaction time.  The ref's consistently show with this, as with stalling, that they can't provide any sort of consistent standards.  For comity's sake I'll say that it's just because it's too hard.  But the result I believe is that the only solution is a much more objective rule.  That's why I favor no reaction time takedowns and a push out rule for edge wrestling.

[forkemaz]

12 hours ago, cl415 said:

I am in favor of no reaction time at this point. Nobody to blame but the refs for this consistently happening. 

I agree. No reaction time and id also make it so standing hand touch/quad pod isnt a take down. A part of their leg other than the bottom of their foot must touch the mat. 

[forkemaz]

9 hours ago, BIGTENFANBOY said:

It was no reaction time a few years ago and everyone complained just like there are complaints now. Its always going to be a problem one way or another.

Remove rear standing hand touch take downs. Remove reaction time. 

[Tchfllsrfke]

10 hours ago, BIGTENFANBOY said:

It was no reaction time a few years ago and everyone complained just like there are complaints now. Its always going to be a problem one way or another.

True, and refs will go over and over these things as a group behind closed doors. Still, it could use some sort of intensive training to get refs more consistent across the board. The more consistent they are, the better wrestlers can just wrestle.

[Tchfllsrfke]

25 minutes ago, forkemaz said:

I agree. No reaction time and id also make it so standing hand touch/quad pod isnt a take down. A part of their leg other than the bottom of their foot must touch the mat. 

Knee, back, shoulder, elbow, hip. Anything but just hands. If you can't get him to touch a knee, you're not in control.

[forkemaz]

35 minutes ago, Tchfllsrfke said:

Knee, back, shoulder, elbow, hip. Anything but just hands. If you can't get him to touch a knee, you're not in control.

Agreed

[gromit]

40 minutes ago, Tchfllsrfke said:

Knee, back, shoulder, elbow, hip. Anything but just hands. If you can't get him to touch a knee, you're not in control.

Agreed. Which is similar to the current criteria for a TD in freestyle, correct?

[forkemaz]

4 minutes ago, gromit said:

Agreed. Which is similar to the current criteria for a TD in freestyle, correct?

Yes. Even a broken clock as they say....

[cl415]

13 hours ago, MNRodent said:

3 seconds left.

 

1 second left.

 

Exactly!

The amount of subjectivity feels like it’s increasing as the skill level of the wrestlers increase. Reaction time is different now because there are more defenses being used to counter takedowns. Really good wrestlers can chain together multiple defenses to create new “reactions” that extend well beyond what I consider the spirit of the rule. The rules need to change to adjust to that.

Look at the last 3 seconds of this when McEnelly was taking down Rocco. McEnelly established TD criteria at the :03 mark. Rocco’s first reaction was reach back to see if he could get a whizzer. His next reaction was to stand up. His 3rd reaction was to take his hand off the mat to clear the TD criteria. His 4th reaction was to attempt a granby when McEnelly was returning him to the mat but that failed. 4 reactions in the span of :03 that ultimately gave the officials enough doubt to not award the 3 even though McEnelly had TD criteria at the :03 mark and :01 mark once they landed. 

I really don’t think multiple failed reactions in a row should keep extending the time. The officials clearly feel otherwise. This turned into a much longer post than I intended but there really needs to be some clarity. 

[cl415]

Here’s a slo mo and response to this post since I don’t have an account on there.
 

You don’t have to be all the way behind in Folkstyle to meet criteria. It was established when he was on the side and cleared the arm. Also this further illustrates my point that the first reaction was to reach back for the whizzer and he can’t find anything there. Once that fails that’s the TD because that is the reaction. It doesn’t matter that he gets stood up and eventually has his hand off the mat. 

 

[Gene Mills Fan]

Also his shoulders are clearly on the mat at :01  It is not a granby, Max is returning him to the mat in control. He's behind and gets body contact to mat for that whole click of the clock. Rocco DID NOT go into roll Max lifted and mat returned him a second before time ran out. TD The fact that time ran out prevented Rocco from getting out of control

Also the edge game, its ok to run out as long as the other guy doesn't go out and you can round around him back to center and not get a caution?

Edited March 9 by Gene Mills Fan