National Duals

[SplitTheG]

Couple of ideas here -- Loved how the event was brought back.

 

Scheduling 

This is hard because this sport is looking for 2 championships rather than 1. That being said, and I know there will be arguments here, what if Conferences and NCAA's were pushed back 1-2 weeks to allow for a National Duals Championship at the end of February. It would allow the qualifying to correspond to a team's performance from the current season.

 

How to qualify - This was a weird format this year, let's make the current season matter for qualifying

8 teams - Dual Meet Title winners from each conference

8 teams - Similar to how individual allocations look at conference strength, you would use a formula for the remaining teams to give fair allocations to each conference. i.e. 87/287 or 30% of wrestlers came from the Big 10. 30% or ~2 of the remaining 8 teams will also come from the Big 10. Based on last year's individual allocations, this would amount to the following:

1 Dual Meet runner-up from ACC

2 Dual Meet runners-up from Big 12

2 Dual Meet runners-up from Big Ten

1 Dual Meet runner-up from EIWA

1 Dual Meet runner-up from Ivy League

1 Dual Meet runner-up from MAC

0 Dual Meet runners-up from PAC-12

0 Dual Meet runners-up from SOCON

 

This could change each year. Weird thought process, I know, but something that makes sense imo. Scheduling around WTT and US Open makes this hard. Happy to hear other thoughts.

 

 

 

 

[jajensen09]

I think they got the teams right this year...

[mksioszk2]

Your layout is a good idea, but you run into some likely issues if you take certain champs and runner ups vs other teams. 

The PAC-12 runner up between LR and Oregon St is likely better than both the SoCon and MAC champ and runner up, the conference being basically non-existent aside. The 5th and 6th best teams in the B10 is also significantly better than most teams from any other conference aside from the B12 and ACC, plus Cornell. National Duals this year was pretty good using the previous NCAA team finishes plus the random draw. There's certainly ways to improve upon it, but that's something for the tournament organizers to figure out

[SplitTheG]

2 minutes ago, mksioszk2 said:

Your layout is a good idea, but you run into some likely issues if you take certain champs and runner ups vs other teams. 

The PAC-12 runner up between LR and Oregon St is likely better than both the SoCon and MAC champ and runner up, the conference being basically non-existent aside. The 5th and 6th best teams in the B10 is also significantly better than most teams from any other conference aside from the B12 and ACC, plus Cornell. National Duals this year was pretty good using the previous NCAA team finishes plus the random draw. There's certainly ways to improve upon it, but that's something for the tournament organizers to figure out

Same thing would happen at NCAA's though, no? The 10th placed guy at Big 10s at 125 is probably better than the 3rd place guy from the Ivy League. It's tougher because the National Duals is a smaller tournament, so the allocations don't feel as fair when put in proportion. I see what you're saying though, but I think some of the goal is to get the right teams in, and some of the goal is to get the proper representation around the country to draw in different fanbases.

I also think this year was good, but based on current dual meet team rankings, 6 of the Top 16 were not included -- Penn State did not participate. Iowa State, Rutgers, Stanford, Pittsburgh, and UNC did not qualify. I think merit of the current year outweighs a team's performance from the prior year, or it should.

[mksioszk2]

10 minutes ago, SplitTheG said:

Same thing would happen at NCAA's though, no? The 10th placed guy at Big 10s at 125 is probably better than the 3rd place guy from the Ivy League. It's tougher because the National Duals is a smaller tournament, so the allocations don't feel as fair when put in proportion. I see what you're saying though, but I think some of the goal is to get the right teams in, and some of the goal is to get the proper representation around the country to draw in different fanbases.

I also think this year was good, but based on current dual meet team rankings, 6 of the Top 16 were not included -- Penn State did not participate. Iowa State, Rutgers, Stanford, Pittsburgh, and UNC did not qualify. I think merit of the current year outweighs a team's performance from the prior year, or it should.

I agree with you that the current year should outweigh prior year, however if you were going to push the post season back even a couple weeks in my eyes you'd see reduced participation from the top teams regardless of the cash prize pool. The NCAA sanctioning a dual team title is unlikely to ever happen no matter how much the fans want it. 

It seems unlikely to me that PSU would go no matter what. I don't think a Ohio State would participate this year given Cannon and Stiles have been out, Bouzakis sits every once in a while. Iowa is missing Ferrari, Keuter was hurt and looks like a shell of himself, Bailey is out, Peterson has been out. Oklahoma State and Iowa State have dealt with injuries in the last couple weeks. In my mind the risk outweighs the reward at this point in the season when conferences and NCAA's are the most important, now you could change that if it was a sanctioned dual title, but I don't see that happening 

[Pinnacle]

Penn State will not partake in Paycom NDInvitational and moving it right smack before the NCAA Championship will likely be causing others to drop out as well.

[Owen Rector]

I think instead of runner ups you could just do at large bids decided by a comittee. This would create more intriguing matchups while still preserving the meaning of the dual season for smaller conferences

[ironmonkey]

Event was fun.  Qualifying criteria was mostly ok though admittedly imperfect.  Some teams cry the blues but usually it's teams that struggle to score post season points.  If you can't consistently compete when it matters, you aren't going to have a consequential showing at the dual tournament.  Some teams are better under the lights.  

[SplitTheG]

2 hours ago, mksioszk2 said:

I agree with you that the current year should outweigh prior year, however if you were going to push the post season back even a couple weeks in my eyes you'd see reduced participation from the top teams regardless of the cash prize pool. The NCAA sanctioning a dual team title is unlikely to ever happen no matter how much the fans want it. 

It seems unlikely to me that PSU would go no matter what. I don't think a Ohio State would participate this year given Cannon and Stiles have been out, Bouzakis sits every once in a while. Iowa is missing Ferrari, Keuter was hurt and looks like a shell of himself, Bailey is out, Peterson has been out. Oklahoma State and Iowa State have dealt with injuries in the last couple weeks. In my mind the risk outweighs the reward at this point in the season when conferences and NCAA's are the most important, now you could change that if it was a sanctioned dual title, but I don't see that happening 

NCAA sanctioned title would be the only way to make this work at the end of the season. I'd still say, 1 month before NCAA's, 2 weeks before Conference Championships.

[Idaho]

3 hours ago, jajensen09 said:

I think they got the teams right this year...

Most... they went by previous years finish for at large rather than the upcoming season... #4 Iowa State was left out, Little Rock got in despite losing a ton of guys... at large selection needs to be refined a bit. 

[ionel]

23 minutes ago, SplitTheG said:

NCAA sanctioned title would be the only way to make this work at the end of the season. I'd still say, 1 month before NCAA's, 2 weeks before Conference Championships.

No one is going to take the chance of getting dinged up two weeks before conference tournaments.  Its in a good time spot now.  

[GreenHorn]

1 hour ago, SplitTheG said:

NCAA sanctioned title would be the only way to make this work at the end of the season. I'd still say, 1 month before NCAA's, 2 weeks before Conference Championships.

I’d like to see it two weeks after the big tournament. Use the existing tournament for individual titles and as qualifying for the team championship in dual tournament format. 

[WrestlingRash]

There is no such thing as national duals. 

[Pinnacle]

2 hours ago, GreenHorn said:

I’d like to see it two weeks after the big tournament. Use the existing tournament for individual titles and as qualifying for the team championship in dual tournament format. 

Put an invitational after the NCAA Championship and no one is showing up.

[SplitTheG]

4 hours ago, ionel said:

No one is going to take the chance of getting dinged up two weeks before conference tournaments.  Its in a good time spot now.  

I mean, you can't really be afraid of wrestling live for a championships. High Schools do this already. You're claiming they wouldn't do it but that's because it doesn't have the clout. If it's NCAA sponsored and there is prize revenue, I'm sure there'd be a different tune around it...

[GreenHorn]

2 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

Put an invitational after the NCAA Championship and no one is showing up.

I thought there was some discussion of an NCAA sanctioned dual team championship. My comment was meant to be in that context. Pie in the sky, I know. And you may still be right about the lack of interest. Idk though, a team dual championship in that window might create some buzz for both existing fans and for those who don’t already follow the sport as closely.

[Nak21]

It’s fine how it is and where it is now. PSU isn’t going. Cael Is LONG on record hating this tourney, current and prior many iterations.
IF the NCAA sanctioned something…I don’t know if his tune would change and PSU would go.

What currently exists is great, happy to have it, wish Cael would reconsider BUT it’s not an NCAA sanctioned event, it’s just a nice very competitive dual tourney sponsored by Okie St’s sugar daddy.

Sanctioned or what it is now. No idea where you put this. Trying to sanction it and move it after the dual season but before qualifiers and NCAAs OR after NCAAs is a disaster and likely non starter. 

[SplitTheG]

9 minutes ago, Nak21 said:

It’s fine how it is and where it is now. PSU isn’t going. Cael Is LONG on record hating this tourney, current and prior many iterations.
IF the NCAA sanctioned something…I don’t know if his tune would change and PSU would go.

What currently exists is great, happy to have it, wish Cael would reconsider BUT it’s not an NCAA sanctioned event, it’s just a nice very competitive dual tourney sponsored by Okie St’s sugar daddy.

Sanctioned or what it is now. No idea where you put this. Trying to sanction it and move it after the dual season but before qualifiers and NCAAs OR after NCAAs is a disaster and likely non starter. 

I mean, not sure why it matters that they wrestle a maximum of 5-6 matches in 2-3 days. You're saying they'd be afraid of getting injured, so why do the event. Well, to be a team national champion in the other aspect that's unique to this sport - The only sport that has a way to crown individual champions and team champions in H2H format. 

Burnout I understand, the schedule would have to change earlier in the season. But being afraid of injury from wrestling? They have to wrestle live in practice in order to prep for Conferences and NCAAs anyway. If they don't, they won't be prepared.

Injury prevention is important, but to say guys need to prep for wrestling by not wrestling is over coddling. They could lighten the load earlier in the season to fit this in. Teams already do two duals two weeks before Conference Championships. If needed, they could spread this over more days if it's a top top concern. Over two weekends if need be. And yes, I said it is ok as it is, but could be way better and could grow the sport's popularity tremendously with the right planning and improvements. As with the athletes, the sport should always look to improve and not rest on its laurels. 

[Fred]

21 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

Penn State will not partake in Paycom NDInvitational …

Yes, we all know, Carl is a beyotch who needs to protect and inflate his records by avoiding real competition as much as possible 

[No BS Fan]

I'd love to see schools/RTC field a dual team tourney for freestyle after NCAA season but before US open. Make all redshirt/greyshirt/medshirt eligible. 

[Pinnacle]

The NCAA isn't handing wrestling another championship. How do people not know this by now? It isn't even an agenda item right now, meaning an item for discussion. 

Paycom might offer cash money, but their CEO probably has a lot less sway with the NCAA than the NWCA so I think this is a non starter except this msg board. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

How about starting the season with individual tournaments, then the regular season like it is now, then ending with a dual championship for the NCAA title? Then a few weeks after the dual championships, the NCAA/USAW hosts a ginormous individual collegiate open that would act as a qualifier for WTT/OTT.

[ionel]

48 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

How about starting the season with individual tournaments, then the regular season like it is now, then ending with a dual championship for the NCAA title? Then a few weeks after the dual championships, the NCAA/USAW hosts a ginormous individual collegiate open that would act as a qualifier for WTT/OTT.

Sounds nice but no one in charge of these things cares about giving us nice things.  

[GreenHorn]

7 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

The NCAA isn't handing wrestling another championship. How do people not know this by now? It isn't even an agenda item right now, meaning an item for discussion. 

Paycom might offer cash money, but their CEO probably has a lot less sway with the NCAA than the NWCA so I think this is a non starter except this msg board. 

I haven’t suggested an additional championship, but a change in how the team title is awarded. The current tournament format could be kept except make it for just individual titles and for qualification to the team championship event in dual tourney format. What I’m describing is almost exactly what is already in place for NCAA golf. Do I think enough people would ever get behind this idea to actually see a change? No, not with how exciting and lucrative the current h championship is. It’s still a valid thing to discuss on a msg board!  

[Le duke]

Yes, we all know, Carl is a beyotch who needs to protect and inflate his records by avoiding real competition as much as possible 

The team with the highest RPI avoids competition?


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