Sr. Worlds... Days 5 thru 9

[maligned]

54 minutes ago, ScottishSteel said:

There will be no more Americans wrestling today.

I've got to boogie soon but here's who USA is tracking for repechage

Black at 60 kg is pulling for Kazakhstan (Sultangali)
Sancho at 72 kg is pulling for France (Ghanem)
Foy at 97 kg is pulling for Georgia (Matcharashvilli)

Ghanem wins his quarter and will be a slight favorite in his semi. Sadly, even if Sancho is brought back in, the Armenian-Iranian-Kazakh gauntlet he'd have to run to win a medal will be stronger than any run of wins he's put together before.

Sorry to be all doom and gloom, but the Kazakh and Georgian are both 8 seeds about to face 1 seeds with strong credentials in their quarterfinal bouts. A lot would have to go well for Black and Foy, as with Sancho, to see us get into medal contention.

[Tripnsweep]

It's too bad we don't have better Greco. 2007 was the peak for us there. 

[D3 for LU]

56 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

Kudos gentlemen for the updates...

Sun vs son... I've never said I was a wizard of typing...

... vs a wizard of the keyboard.

(You're welcome, by the way. )

D3

Edited 7 hours ago by D3 for LU

[MPhillips]

2 minutes ago, D3 for LU said:

Sun vs son... I've never said I wasa  wizard of typing

It wasn't that, It was the part about being the son his father that I appreciated...

[maligned]

Sultangali, the Kazakh who beat Black, is into the semi's with an upset. So Black and Sancho still possibly alive pending the semi-final results.

[D3 for LU]

41 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

It's too bad we don't have better Greco. 2007 was the peak for us there. 

The Mat's article of that USA greco team...

GRECO-ROMAN VICTORY: Behind the scene at the 2007 World Championships | USA Wrestling

D3

[maligned]

Greco proposal: a 1-1 passivity points match stops at 5 minutes. Each guy is given 30 seconds on top in par terre. Whoever scores the most points wins. If both score the same amount, the one who scored quickest wins. If neither score, do a second, and then a third round of par terre sudden death like I described. If none of that yields points, we've wrestled 8 minutes. Flip a coin or disqualify both guys. I'd be fine with either result. But guys "winning" a 1-1 passivity points match is bogus.

Edited 7 hours ago by maligned

[nhs67]

Man.  When I heard Dean and some other prominent D1 guys might decide to go the Greco route years back, I was excited to see how we could improve.

We need something.

[nhs67]

29 minutes ago, maligned said:

Greco proposal: a 1-1 passivity points match stops at 5 minutes. Each guy is given 30 seconds on top in par terre. Whoever scores the most points wins. If both score the same amount, the one who scored quickest wins. If neither score, do a second, and then a third round of par terre sudden death like I described. If none of that yields points, we've wrestled 8 minutes. Flip a coin or disqualify both guys. I'd be fine with either result. But guys "winning" a 1-1 passivity points match is bogus.

Greco proposal:  Remove the par terre for Greco.  Make those rules the same as MFS.  Shot clock.  If it is 1-1, last point scored wins. Simple.

Also, make it 10 points for a Tech.  I know it is separate styles, but if you eliminate some of the things that create separation, there might be others who give it a go.  There are many rules that could be blended, that just aren't.

[nhs67]

I wish Bey would have gone the NCAA D1 route.

[maligned]

Just now, nhs67 said:

I wish Bey would have gone the NCAA D1 route.

I wonder if he wishes that now, too. I think with his longevity and dynamism, he could have been a rare Greco star--but the results have always been just outside his grasp.

[WrestlingRasta]

1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Man.  When I heard Dean and some other prominent D1 guys might decide to go the Greco route years back, I was excited to see how we could improve.

We need something.

So, if I’m understanding this correctly, you were expecting some folkstyle ncaa champs and all Americans to start focusing on Greco around 23 years old, and be competitive with Europeans and Asians who have been focusing on Greco since 10 years old? 

[ScottishSteel]

7 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

So, if I’m understanding this correctly, you were expecting some folkstyle ncaa champs and all Americans to start focusing on Greco around 23 years old, and be competitive with Europeans and Asians who have been focusing on Greco since 10 years old? 

Didn't Dake when he was struggling to make a world team in freestyle make a run at Greco one year to little success?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, ScottishSteel said:

Didn't Dake when he was struggling to make a world team in freestyle make a run at Greco one year to little success?

I think he did one dual?

Edited 4 hours ago by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[ScottishSteel]

10 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think he did one dual?

That would classify as very limited success haha

[nhs67]

26 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

So, if I’m understanding this correctly, you were expecting some folkstyle ncaa champs and all Americans to start focusing on Greco around 23 years old, and be competitive with Europeans and Asians who have been focusing on Greco since 10 years old? 

I never said that.  What I said was I wish our Tier 1 athletes, the ones with the most success at our American Folkstyle, would focus on Greco.  The reasoning is because what we have now is not working.

If you are okay with getting zero medals and not even getting the chance to compete for medals (because we don't/aren't), then your opinion on the matters very little.

[nhs67]

25 minutes ago, ScottishSteel said:

Didn't Dake when he was struggling to make a world team in freestyle make a run at Greco one year to little success?

 

24 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think he did one dual?

 

13 minutes ago, ScottishSteel said:

That would classify as very limited success haha

He was supposed to do a dual, but I don't remember if he actually did it (he was injured at the time, iirc).

[WrestlingRasta]

8 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I never said that.  What I said was I wish our Tier 1 athletes, the ones with the most success at our American Folkstyle, would focus on Greco.  The reasoning is because what we have now is not working.

If you are okay with getting zero medals and not even getting the chance to compete for medals (because we don't/aren't), then your opinion on the matters very little.

Well, actually that's not what you said....what you said was:  When I heard Dean and some other prominent D1 guys might decide to go the Greco route years back, I was excited to see how we could improve.

But I'm not trying to get into a little whiny pissing match about it, was just looking for clarification.  You are free to perceive that how you'd like.  Carry on. 

[nhs67]

4 minutes ago, WrestlingRasta said:

Well, actually that's not what you said....what you said was:  When I heard Dean and some other prominent D1 guys might decide to go the Greco route years back, I was excited to see how we could improve.

But I'm not trying to get into a little whiny pissing match about it, was just looking for clarification.  You are free to perceive that how you'd like.  Carry on. 

You insert our best athletes to focus on the sport, the potential ceiling is raised.  How is that not what I was trying to get towards?

How would you do it?  How would you promote we get better?  We have had at least two great prospects that decided to forgo college wrestling to focus on it the last ~ten years(Bey and Hancock).

Bey continues to show raw flashes of pure awesomeness... but underperforms.  When do we accept that he isn't underperforming, he is performing to his developed peak?

Hancock?  He decided the support and coaching wasn't there so he completely left the sport.  He saw the writing on the wall.

Those two focused on only MGR after high school and both would have likely had rather stellar careers if they had gone the D1 route.  I don't see how their ceilings could, or would, have been any lower than they already have been (1 medal between the two of them).

[maligned]

Both Black and Sancho ended up being brought back in. As previously mentioned, Sancho would have to win 3 very tough matches tomorrow to medal. Black has a more winnable first match against Israel before he'd face the 1 seed from North Korea to earn a spot in the bronze match.

[WrestlingRasta]

2 hours ago, maligned said:

I wonder if he wishes that now, too. I think with his longevity and dynamism, he could have been a rare Greco star--but the results have always been just outside his grasp.

But on the other hand, he spent his college years traveling all over the world competing at the very highest level, and is forever an Olympian and veteran of the US Army. 

[BaldHeadedShannon]

37 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

You insert our best athletes to focus on the sport, the potential ceiling is raised.  How is that not what I was trying to get towards?

How would you do it?  How would you promote we get better?  We have had at least two great prospects that decided to forgo college wrestling to focus on it the last ~ten years(Bey and Hancock).

Bey continues to show raw flashes of pure awesomeness... but underperforms.  When do we accept that he isn't underperforming, he is performing to his developed peak?

Hancock?  He decided the support and coaching wasn't there so he completely left the sport.  He saw the writing on the wall.

Those two focused on only MGR after high school and both would have likely had rather stellar careers if they had gone the D1 route.  I don't see how their ceilings could, or would, have been any lower than they already have been (1 medal between the two of them).

Do you think Aden Attao will regret moving over to greco full time? I'm asking this genuinely and not as some kind of sarcastic question.

[ScottishSteel]

8 minutes ago, BaldHeadedShannon said:

Do you think Aden Attao will regret moving over to greco full time? I'm asking this genuinely and not as some kind of sarcastic question.

I hope not cause that means he was extremely successful in Greco but as a Beavs fan I sure as heck wish he was gonna be toeing the line in Corvallis this year

[nhs67]

2 minutes ago, BaldHeadedShannon said:

Do you think Aden Attao will regret moving over to greco full time? I'm asking this genuinely and not as some kind of sarcastic question.

I do.

I don't want to act like I understand what his training situation will be, but a huge reason for our successes our that our college kids go through the grind of a season.  That mentality carries over to their training style.  We gas so many people out because of it.  That is a tool that we don't utilize at the highest level in MGR.

The argument that there are D1 athletes doing it is rather moot.  When I say D1, I mean the pinnacle.  Look at the AA at 184lbs, for example last season.  The Top 6 placers all wrestled some form of MFS this season.  Either WTT, Pan Ams, Worlds (age level or otherwise) or some form of overseas worlds.

1st - Starocci, WTT 86 KG
2nd - Keckeisen, WTT 86 KG
3rd - McEnelly, U20s 86 KG
4th - Plott, WTT 92 KG
5th - Foca, Dominican Republic WTT
6th - Smith, Pan Ams 86 KG

I am sure a lot of it is systemic.  The same procedures aren't used for picking who goes where (Pan Ams, ranking series, etc).  The MFS procedures are working to draw our best, most capable athletes from NCAA D1 Folkstyle.  MGR needs to mimic that.  It will take time to catch up.  Probably a decade, or more... but it will be worth the try.

[BaldHeadedShannon]

Just now, ScottishSteel said:

I hope not cause that means he was extremely successful in Greco but as a Beavs fan I sure as heck wish he was gonna be toeing the line in Corvallis this year

I agree. Loved watching him climb the ranks as a high school recruit and watching him win age level world medals and hope he can replicate that at the senior level if he can get past the Schultz/Coon obstacle. Just wish we could see him contend for a national title. I thought he would be ready to make a deep run in March until his announcement he was moving on.