What’s actually going on in PA

[Formally140]

I’ve been subjected to Pat Minnows rants throughout my timelines. Something about transfers and eligibility and dad coach drama.

Could @Husker_Duor someone not Minnow explain 

[Husker_Du]

two-time state finalist Louie Gill (NC State commit)

moved to a new school over the summer. they had hearings on it. i'm still not sure it's resolved. 

Mineo is saying a parent of a kid ranked in the state at that weight is fighting for the kid to be ineligible, which i highly doubt. 

[Idaho]

My understanding is that the kid came back to his home school.  Like many states, when you combine the inconsistent application of eligibility requirements with parents and loopholes, the result is usually chaos. 

[Husker_Du]

Idaho, 

that's correct. but that is the other case. there's two of them

Nick Kunstek: Blair to Pottsville 

Louie Gill: Hickory to Reynolds

[JVStateChamp]

From my understanding, PIAA has set rules that if a student transfers after their sophomore year of high school they are required to sit out the following postseason. I believe that Louie Gill just had his trial and was deemed ineligible, I could be mistaken. 

[gimpeltf]

1 minute ago, JVStateChamp said:

From my understanding, PIAA has set rules that if a student transfers after their sophomore year of high school they are required to sit out the following postseason. I believe that Louie Gill just had his trial and was deemed ineligible, I could be mistaken. 

After the start of his soph year.

[JVStateChamp]

Thank you for the clarification. Pennsylvania and the PIAA have a real issue with their blanket policy that combats transferring, I am not knowledgeable in other sports in the PIAA but wrestling cannot be the only sport that feels student athletes are losing the opportunity to represent their school as long as they live in said school district. This is completely hypothetical, but what if Kunstek's parents could no longer afford to send him to Blair and wanted him to return to his high school. Why should he be punished and ineligible for a reason such as financial? Again this is a completely hypothetical reason.

 

[Formally140]

1 hour ago, JVStateChamp said:

Thank you for the clarification. Pennsylvania and the PIAA have a real issue with their blanket policy that combats transferring, I am not knowledgeable in other sports in the PIAA but wrestling cannot be the only sport that feels student athletes are losing the opportunity to represent their school as long as they live in said school district. This is completely hypothetical, but what if Kunstek's parents could no longer afford to send him to Blair and wanted him to return to his high school. Why should he be punished and ineligible for a reason such as financial? Again this is a completely hypothetical reason.

 

So wait. They can’t return to play for their neighborhood school?

[JVStateChamp]

3 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

So wait. They can’t return to play for their neighborhood school?

That was the PIAA ruling for this particular instance. I am unaware if this is the norm similar scenarios but it does seem to be a bad policy.

[Formally140]

15 minutes ago, JVStateChamp said:

That was the PIAA ruling for this particular instance. I am unaware if this is the norm similar scenarios but it does seem to be a bad policy.

I do think there needs to be regulation. Contrary to what some think but that just seems unnecessary 

[scourge165]

10 hours ago, JVStateChamp said:

Thank you for the clarification. Pennsylvania and the PIAA have a real issue with their blanket policy that combats transferring, I am not knowledgeable in other sports in the PIAA but wrestling cannot be the only sport that feels student athletes are losing the opportunity to represent their school as long as they live in said school district. This is completely hypothetical, but what if Kunstek's parents could no longer afford to send him to Blair and wanted him to return to his high school. Why should he be punished and ineligible for a reason such as financial? Again this is a completely hypothetical reason.

 

Yeah, that's a bad rule. We had that same rule, but there were numerous exceptions. If parents split, or if they physically moved(can't blame a kid for parents moving to a new school district).

Basically...if there was an honest reason, you could. If you were doing it solely for sports, you had to miss a year. 

[BAC]

PA's transfer rules are absurdly draconian.  We don't penalize parents for moving to another school because it has a better science curriculum, or fewer students, or cuter girls, or more (or less) diversity, or better teachers, or a nicer building, but the hammer comes down if they go for athletics?  It makes no sense.  We should be encouraging schools to do thinks well, academically and athletically, so they attract other students.  Instead we are catering to the lowest common denominator:  schools whose programs are so bad that parents want to leave.  And they have no incentive to improve, since the PIAA makes them stay.

But even if you're inclined to agree with the PIAA rules, what is indefensible is that PA lets parochial schools compete in PIAA (e.g. Bethlehem Catholic) but doesn't require they comply with the same rules as a condition of entry.  So if you move to Bethlehem to go wrestle for Nazareth, you're out, but if you're moving there to wrestle for BeCa, no problem, carry on.  How is that fair?  

[JVStateChamp]

On 2/2/2023 at 11:51 PM, BAC said:

PA's transfer rules are absurdly draconian.  We don't penalize parents for moving to another school because it has a better science curriculum, or fewer students, or cuter girls, or more (or less) diversity, or better teachers, or a nicer building, but the hammer comes down if they go for athletics?  It makes no sense.  We should be encouraging schools to do thinks well, academically and athletically, so they attract other students.  Instead we are catering to the lowest common denominator:  schools whose programs are so bad that parents want to leave.  And they have no incentive to improve, since the PIAA makes them stay.

But even if you're inclined to agree with the PIAA rules, what is indefensible is that PA lets parochial schools compete in PIAA (e.g. Bethlehem Catholic) but doesn't require they comply with the same rules as a condition of entry.  So if you move to Bethlehem to go wrestle for Nazareth, you're out, but if you're moving there to wrestle for BeCa, no problem, carry on.  How is that fair?  

The PIAA is very flawed and not transparent in their rulings for transferring but their response to your argument is that the student athlete is still allowed to compete for that school but may not participate in post season. Which as everyone knows is the reason for most of these athletes to compete for their high school. The goal is to be a PIAA state champion which the student has the ability to do at their high school before transferring. I do not agree in all cases but what the PIAA is attempting to prevent is power teams taking completely taking over and taking numbers away from the other public school teams. 

[BAC]

5 minutes ago, JVStateChamp said:

The PIAA is very flawed and not transparent in their rulings for transferring but their response to your argument is that the student athlete is still allowed to compete for that school but may not participate in post season. Which as everyone knows is the reason for most of these athletes to compete for their high school. The goal is to be a PIAA state champion which the student has the ability to do at their high school before transferring. I do not agree in all cases but what the PIAA is attempting to prevent is power teams taking completely taking over and taking numbers away from the other public school teams. 

Three points.

One, if the point is to avoid taking numbers away from other schools, why only athletics?  The most common reason for a family to move to for educational reasons is to go to a better school -- i.e. to go to an academically superior school where your child will be better challenged.  Yet no one has any quarrel with that, even though it pulls students from other public schools, and creates "power academic schools"?  Why is that OK, but not athletics?  Why is every other education-related reason to move to a new school district OK (diversity, quality of facilities, cuteness of girls, etc) OK, but ONLY athletics is not?  When you boil it down, isn't it just raw discrimination against athletes?

Two, how much of a risk is this "power team" thing, really?  There's a very limited number of families that are wlling to dislodge from their jobs and sell their house to move to another school district entirely, just so junior can have a better wrestling team.  Even if were allowed, what are we talking, maybe a half-dozen per year out of thousands of wrestlers?  And even where it happens, it will necessarily be limited, as if the top 5 135lbers in the state all decide they want to transfer to the "best school", that means 4 won't even start.  Compare it to other states without such rules:  PIAA's fear has not come to pass.  All this fuss over a handful of kids who like a particular sport so much that they want to be in a school with the best coach/program.  Big freaking deal.  Its not like schools would suddenly be drained of their roster because all the families are moving away.  It is enormously disruptive to quit jobs and sell your house and move, and is not nearly the risk that some paint it to be.

Three, back to the hypocrisy:  if it were REALLY a goal of PIAA to "prevent is power teams taking completely taking over and taking numbers away from the other public school teams," why would they allow parochial schools to participate in PIAA leagues and post-season, without requiring as a condition of entry that they abide by the "no athletic intent" reason for joining that school?  THAT more than anything is what creates a situation of have and have-nots in PA.  If some wrestler in the middle of nowhere PA wants to go to a better wrestling program and compete in PIAA states, and is forbidden by PIAA from going to another public school, then his only choice is to go to a parochial school that lacks such rules -- e.g. Bethlehem Catholic.  And THAT is why so much talent is now concentrated there:  not in spite of PIAA policies, but because of them.  

At the end of the day, this PIAA policy is just raw protectionism for schools with crappy athletic programs.  Its just incentive for them to not get better, and for the school district to not try to make any improvements in the staff.

I realize you're just explaining the PIAA position and not necessarily defending them, but how do you think they -- or any of their defenders -- would respond to these three points? Is there even a response?

[JVStateChamp]

33 minutes ago, BAC said:

Three points.

One, if the point is to avoid taking numbers away from other schools, why only athletics?  The most common reason for a family to move to for educational reasons is to go to a better school -- i.e. to go to an academically superior school where your child will be better challenged.  Yet no one has any quarrel with that, even though it pulls students from other public schools, and creates "power academic schools"?  Why is that OK, but not athletics?  Why is every other education-related reason to move to a new school district OK (diversity, quality of facilities, cuteness of girls, etc) OK, but ONLY athletics is not?  When you boil it down, isn't it just raw discrimination against athletes?

Two, how much of a risk is this "power team" thing, really?  There's a very limited number of families that are wlling to dislodge from their jobs and sell their house to move to another school district entirely, just so junior can have a better wrestling team.  Even if were allowed, what are we talking, maybe a half-dozen per year out of thousands of wrestlers?  And even where it happens, it will necessarily be limited, as if the top 5 135lbers in the state all decide they want to transfer to the "best school", that means 4 won't even start.  Compare it to other states without such rules:  PIAA's fear has not come to pass.  All this fuss over a handful of kids who like a particular sport so much that they want to be in a school with the best coach/program.  Big freaking deal.  Its not like schools would suddenly be drained of their roster because all the families are moving away.  It is enormously disruptive to quit jobs and sell your house and move, and is not nearly the risk that some paint it to be.

Three, back to the hypocrisy:  if it were REALLY a goal of PIAA to "prevent is power teams taking completely taking over and taking numbers away from the other public school teams," why would they allow parochial schools to participate in PIAA leagues and post-season, without requiring as a condition of entry that they abide by the "no athletic intent" reason for joining that school?  THAT more than anything is what creates a situation of have and have-nots in PA.  If some wrestler in the middle of nowhere PA wants to go to a better wrestling program and compete in PIAA states, and is forbidden by PIAA from going to another public school, then his only choice is to go to a parochial school that lacks such rules -- e.g. Bethlehem Catholic.  And THAT is why so much talent is now concentrated there:  not in spite of PIAA policies, but because of them.  

At the end of the day, this PIAA policy is just raw protectionism for schools with crappy athletic programs.  Its just incentive for them to not get better, and for the school district to not try to make any improvements in the staff.

I realize you're just explaining the PIAA position and not necessarily defending them, but how do you think they -- or any of their defenders -- would respond to these three points? Is there even a response?

I agree with your stand on many points, I am more just playing devils advocate for possible reasoning's that the PIAA may point out. To your three points I agree with you but the PIAA will respond or try to give reasoning that...

1. PIAA will argue that they are Pennsylvania Interscholastic ATHLETIC Association, so any transfer that are connected to academic achievement or academic resources are not under their jurisdiction to make a ruling on. 

2. I agree with your point that if a family cares enough to move their family and pays into the school districts taxes then that should student should be eligible to compete for the school district the family pays into. 

"PIAA believes that the student-athlete is best served by a system which emphasizes the amateur, educational, and character-building aspects of high school sports and which recognizes that athletics is not the driving force. The students are in school primarily to obtain an education."

This quote off their website will be their argument, and they will state that the student athlete moved or transferred for the sole purpose of athletics and not primarily to obtain an education. I do not know the ins and outs of how the PIAA would prove that logic but that would be their argument.

3. I completely agree with you, that a school that does not have any boundaries or any restrictions that a public school has is a huge disservice to the PIAA and other public schools. My stance is that they do not care about boundary and non boundary because every school that participates in the PIAA pays into the PIAA, so like everything else it boils down to money which is a shame. 

I am again playing devils advocate for the sake of discussion and I do not agree with many of the transfer policies that the PIAA has implemented .