Tom Brands hasn’t seen anyone better than Lee

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

53 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Neither of us know exactly how much Lee was cutting, I was going by the eye test and so are you. However, if he was cutting “as bad as anyone you have ever seen”, and still managed to make weight and pin/tech his way through the world championships, isn’t that even more of a testament to how good he really is?

You are picking out one stat that 50kg results don’t translate. I don’t have time to look that up so I’ll have to trust you on it. If you’ve got the time, can you check the stats on how well 3x age level champs do at the next level? Or maybe how well guys that pinned/teched their way through twice do? Or maybe how well 4x Ncaa champs do? Getting ahead of myself with that one, but you get my point. They guys talent is undeniable, but I guess you can keep denying if you want. I’m done trying to prove that point.

He dropped about 20.  He said as much in a podcast, I think the barstool one.

[VakAttack]

12 minutes ago, LJB said:

lee is not a technical wrestler... he is a bruiser...

clearly he is talented at what he does... you can not find an actual quote where i have said anything to the contrary...

 

you are better than this...

you doing aight?

Dude, you're on here talking as if Lee retired and never accomplished anything in Freestyle, when he is still an active wrestler.  Are YOU alright?  Have you come from the future to tell us what transpires?

BTW, not like the US has some amazing trove of highly technical wrestlers at 57, either.

[LJB]

Just now, Mr. PeanutButter said:

What are some examples of "technical wrestlers"?

It's undeniable that he enjoys a significant strength advantage but I guess I don't understand your assertion that he isn't a "technical wrestlers" given that he has a much higher finishing rate on his shots, rarely breaks position, doesn't engage in any silly ankle/funk rolls. 

You admitted in a previous post that you haven't watched many of his more recent matches soooo.... How much confidence can you have in your own opinions

Because if you continue to read you will also see I said in fairness I watched a couple of his recent matches… 

like from this year…

Looked pretty much the exact same as ever… 

a little slower…

 

I only really can watch Greco anymore…

and that is the most technical of all the styles… 

I won’t bore you with all the names because it will not mean much…

but, take a look at iman mohammadi… the foot fighting he is doing now is next level stuff… I would suggest his U20 finals match where he basically decided he was just going to win on push outs because he is that much better…

his U23 gold medal match was much more entertaining by traditional standards… just not as impressive from a technical standpoint…

 

after you get done with those go watch lee vs Ramos and watch lee’s plodding foot movement…

 

[Mr. PeanutButter]

Just now, LJB said:

Because if you continue to read you will also see I said in fairness I watched a couple of his recent matches… 

like from this year…

Looked pretty much the exact same as ever… 

a little slower…

 

I only really can watch Greco anymore…

and that is the most technical of all the styles… 

I won’t bore you with all the names because it will not mean much…

but, take a look at iman mohammadi… the foot fighting he is doing now is next level stuff… I would suggest his U20 finals match where he basically decided he was just going to win on push outs because he is that much better…

his U23 gold medal match was much more entertaining by traditional standards… just not as impressive from a technical standpoint…

 

after you get done with those go watch lee vs Ramos and watch lee’s plodding foot movement…

 

Ooof. Greco is the most technical sport? I don't know about that but I don't know much about Greco so I'll entertain the thought.

So foot fighting and scoring off of push outs makes a wrestler "technical"? I would argue that Lee's hand fighting, shot set-up, and shot finish is plenty technical but won't argue that he is the most technical out there.

It seems like we're in different worlds - you're engrossed in Greco, something I know little about, so I'm not sure if I can at this time appreciate your point fully enough to engage deeper. Thank you for the thoughts though, gave me something to consider and look at when I watch Lee and other folkstylers

[LJB]

6 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Dude, you're on here talking as if Lee retired and never accomplished anything in Freestyle, when he is still an active wrestler.  Are YOU alright?  Have you come from the future to tell us what transpires?

BTW, not like the US has some amazing trove of highly technical wrestlers at 57, either.

i truly don't see him doing much internationally...

i don't see him beating gilman, but, if he does i won't be shocked...

if he medaled at worlds or the olympics i would be somewhat shocked based off of what i continue to see... if he does medal i will be super happy for him...

i think what i see would look incredibly different if he had not wasted his best physical self continuing to wrestle like he always has because of how effective it is in the lower levels of wrestling... that should be read as NCAAs...

 

 

[LJB]

2 minutes ago, Mr. PeanutButter said:

Ooof. Greco is the most technical sport? I don't know about that but I don't know much about Greco so I'll entertain the thought.

So foot fighting and scoring off of push outs makes a wrestler "technical"? I would argue that Lee's hand fighting, shot set-up, and shot finish is plenty technical but won't argue that he is the most technical out there.

It seems like we're in different worlds - you're engrossed in Greco, something I know little about, so I'm not sure if I can at this time appreciate your point fully enough to engage deeper. Thank you for the thoughts though, gave me something to consider and look at when I watch Lee and other folkstylers

ugh...

no...

just scoring off pushouts does not equate to anything in and of itself...

how mohammadi did it in that match was amazing to watch...

foot fighting in and of itself is not super technical, but, the exact position he places that foot than wraps the big toe around the heel to cause imbalance all the while avoiding leg fouls (not always mind you) is wildly technical...

greco works on millimeters of space to make a technique work...

that is my world...

that is not folk by any stretch of the imagination...

[LJB]

29 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

He dropped about 20.  He said as much in a podcast, I think the barstool one.

i would not have guessed 20 was possible for him, but, he looked soooo bad i am not super surprised to hear that number...

it was a topic of discussion because we assumed it would be him and mosha in the finals...

it was...

and it was not competitive at all...

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, LJB said:

i would not have guessed 20 was possible for him, but, he looked soooo bad i am not super surprised to hear that number...

it was a topic of discussion because we assumed it would be him and mosha in the finals...

it was...

and it was not competitive at all...

I think he said he was 130 ish.  Said he has basically around the same walking around weight through high school and most of college.

Even if he said 125 ish, its still almost a 15 % drop for a small, lean human.  Pretty significant.

[LJB]

6 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think he said he was 130 ish.  Said he has basically around the same walking around weight through high school and most of college.

Even if he said 125 ish, its still almost a 15 % drop for a small, lean human.  Pretty significant.

he looks bigger now to me than he did then and that is based off of his face looking lean this season in the few pics i have paid any attention to, but, i would definitely agree he has "basically" been the same weight since he was about 8th grade...

he was a full grown man destroying little boys passing through his weight...

if it was near 20 then he was pulling more than fix was to make 55kg at that time...

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 minutes ago, LJB said:

i would not have guessed 20 was possible for him, but, he looked soooo bad i am not super surprised to hear that number...

it was a topic of discussion because we assumed it would be him and mosha in the finals...

it was...

and it was not competitive at all...

"Bussin' With the Boys" 9/22/2021 at about the 1:19:57 mark.

Q: Ever see any crazy weight cuts?

Lee: "Me! In 2016 I wrestled at 110 lbs... I weighed about 130, so I had to lose about 20lbs.  Took me like six months.  I shrunk my body..."

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, LJB said:

he looks bigger now to me than he did then and that is based off of his face looking lean this season in the few pics i have paid any attention to, but, i would definitely agree he has "basically" been the same weight since he was about 8th grade...

he was a full grown man destroying little boys passing through his weight...

if it was near 20 then he was pulling more than fix was to make 55kg at that time...

 

I have heard that he gained a bit of muscle mass being unable to wrestle and got up to 137 or so.  Not sure what he walks around at now.  He was definitely gassed in his first couple matches back this season.  Some of that could have been the weight cut.

[LJB]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I have heard that he gained a bit of muscle mass being unable to wrestle and got up to 137 or so.  Not sure what he walks around at now.  He was definitely gassed in his first couple matches back this season.  Some of that could have been the weight cut.

i have never seen lee wrestle a full match and not looked like he was hurting at the end...

he just rarely has ever had to push himself that hard...

yet another reason i don't see him doing many big things on the senior level...

those guys wont care how strong he is for 2 minutes...

[LJB]

7 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

"Bussin' With the Boys" 9/22/2021 at about the 1:19:57 mark.

Q: Ever see any crazy weight cuts?

Lee: "Me! In 2016 I wrestled at 110 lbs... I weighed about 130, so I had to lose about 20lbs.  Took me like six months.  I shrunk my body..."

i know we were all pretty surprised he tried 55kg that year...

clearly he was not liking that pull to 50kg and thought he was good enough to drop fix no matter what...

and he came out strong both first periods of each match...

then wore down...

anyone notice a theme?

i know he was super pissed he had to continue that descent to 50...

[lightweight]

1 hour ago, Jamie_Taco said:

Yeah, just another silver medalist guy taking a loss in his last match while trying to go undefeated at his level for four years.  Must be a bunch of guys in that category.  

[Eagle26]

"Bussin' With the Boys" 9/22/2021 at about the 1:19:57 mark.
Q: Ever see any crazy weight cuts?
Lee: "Me! In 2016 I wrestled at 110 lbs... I weighed about 130, so I had to lose about 20lbs.  Took me like six months.  I shrunk my body..."

Wow that’s an impressive cut. I wouldn’t have guessed that

[LJB]

14 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Wow that’s an impressive cut. I wouldn’t have guessed that

shocking even after someone who actually witnessed it told you it was a huge cut and you still argued the fact...

**insert winky face emoji**

[LJB]

BTW...

the younger one is home for a couple of days to get some antibiotics for some funk before he heads back north to work with a senior world team member before zagreb...

i took him to go get snacks a few minutes ago and i was telling him how little i have got done today because i am squabbling on the googlewebs about spencer lee...

he asked me if i heard what brands said...

we both had a deep belly laugh about it all...

good times...

[dragit]

50 minutes ago, LJB said:

i have never seen lee wrestle a full match and not looked like he was hurting at the end...

he just rarely has ever had to push himself that hard...

yet another reason i don't see him doing many big things on the senior level...

those guys wont care how strong he is for 2 minutes...

... this is becoming ridiculous ...

2018 NCAA semis, third period, last minute pin of Tomasello...

2018 NCAA finals, 0-0 after 2 minutes, 5-1 win over Suriano...

2019 Senior Nationals semis, down 2-1 to Arujau after 1:45, wins by 14-4 TF in sixth minute of match...

2019 Senior Nationals finals, vs Tomasello, up 5-0 after 2 minutes, wins 8-2...

These were the rare windows when he was relatively healthy...

He's had many matches where he was visibly hurting/gassed when he was out on the mat still recovering from major surgery or illness, this has happened repeatedly and it's obvious that he's gutting it out at far less than full strength...

Furthermore, that's exacerbated because he wrestles so much harder than anyone else from the whistle ... no circling around for 3 minutes killing time and faking a couple of shots for him ... I hardly think that shows up on the negative side of his ledger ... it would be nice to see more wrestlers walk off the mat tired after not saving energy the whole match but rather having gone at it as hard as he does...

...

[LJB]

2 minutes ago, dragit said:

... this is becoming ridiculous ...

2018 NCAA semis, third period, last minute pin of Tomasello...

2018 NCAA finals, 0-0 after 2 minutes, 5-1 win over Suriano...

2019 Senior Nationals semis, down 2-1 to Arujau after 1:45, wins by 14-4 TF in sixth minute of match...

2019 Senior Nationals finals, vs Tomasello, up 5-0 after 2 minutes, wins 8-2...

These were the rare windows when he was relatively healthy...

He's had many matches where he was visibly hurting/gassed when he was out on the mat still recovering from major surgery or illness, this has happened repeatedly and it's obvious that he's gutting it out at far less than full strength...

Furthermore, that's exacerbated because he wrestles so much harder than anyone else from the whistle ... no circling around for 3 minutes killing time and faking a couple of shots for him ... I hardly think that shows up on the negative side of his ledger ... it would be nice to see more wrestlers walk off the mat tired after not saving energy the whole match but rather having gone at it as hard as he does...

...

ok...

we can all revisit this when lee makes a senior team...

when?

sorry...

i mean "if"

"if" he never does and he still feels good about his decisions then he will have inequivalently done better than most...

[Eagle26]

shocking even after someone who actually witnessed it told you it was a huge cut and you still argued the fact...
**insert winky face emoji**

Hey, I didn’t argue the weight cut part with you after you mentioned you saw it. I simply stated we were both going by the eye test. Clearly, you had closer eye on it than I did. Congratulations. I will admit I was wrong about that part. The question is will you ever admit the parts you were wrong about…
**insert winky face emoji**

[LJB]

1 minute ago, Eagle26 said:

Hey, I didn’t argue the weight cut part with you after you mentioned you saw it. I simply stated we were both going by the eye test. Clearly, you had closer eye on it than I did. Congratulations. I will admit I was wrong about that part. The question is will you ever admit the parts you were wrong about…
**insert winky face emoji**

that is an impressive crawdaddy painted in the best possible light...

i applaud you...

 

i have already said multiple times i will not be unhappy to be proven wrong in regards to lee...

it just has not happened yet...

[Ponzi]

2 hours ago, LJB said:

i have never denied his talent...

or that he was good at wrestling...

or is one of the best ever at the poo style...

just that it is laughable he could be consider the best wrestler that has ever lived...

 

i can tell you exactly how many 3X age level world medalists at 50kg have a senior medal...

0...

 

of course i dont know how much lee was acxtually cutting...

just that i actually saw him doing it with my own eyes and i can tell you he was not having any fun at all...

you are basing it off a result you saw...

i can't say for sure, but, i would be very surprised if you knew without looking it up who he wrestled in the finals that year...

i can...

i have also watched fix pull weight and smile all the way through it...

the other point that you are ignoring is that in 2016 it was day before weigh ins...

whatever...

i get none of you will ever come off the hill... you all will be buried up there...

it's fine with me...

 

People die on hills. They are not buried on hills. But in this case, we will do neither.

[BerniePragle]

3x PIAA AAA champ (easily could have been 4x),  3x NCAA champ so far.  Sullivan Award.  2x Hodge trophy.
While that in itself doesn't get you GOAT, I'm pretty sure it would get you BMOC for at least 8 years.
Recognized by anyone in the US that has even the slightest interest in college wrestling as one of the best ever.
Add in a college degree.

Or, on the other hand...

He could maybe have been recognized by the relatively small wrestling cognoscenti in the US because of international wrestling success.

Maybe, just maybe Spencer Lee is more concerned with what the cute girls on campus think of him, rather than what a tiny group of old guys on a wrestling forum (maybe just one guy) think of him.  Incomphrensible, huh?
 

[LJB]

8 minutes ago, BerniePragle said:

3x PIAA AAA champ (easily could have been 4x),  3x NCAA champ so far.  Sullivan Award.  2x Hodge trophy.
While that in itself doesn't get you GOAT, I'm pretty sure it would get you BMOC for at least 8 years.
Recognized by anyone in the US that has even the slightest interest in college wrestling as one of the best ever.
Add in a college degree.

Or, on the other hand...

He could maybe have been recognized by the relatively small wrestling cognoscenti in the US because of international wrestling success.

Maybe, just maybe Spencer Lee is more concerned with what the cute girls on campus think of him, rather than what a tiny group of old guys on a wrestling forum (maybe just one guy) think of him.  Incomphrensible, huh?
 

best in a niche sport in america?

or...

unarguably the best on the planet?

given your druthers, which one do you pick?

[dragit]

7 minutes ago, LJB said:

ok...

we can all revisit this when lee makes a senior team...

when?

sorry...

i mean "if"

"if" he never does and he still feels good about his decisions then he will have inequivalently done better than most...

Obviously wrestling fans will all be very interested to see -- and their ultimate judgment of his career will be heavily influenced by --  how he does at the senior level when he gets a chance.  He blew through the U.S. Open in 2019 and fate hasn't allowed him to wrestle there again since.  

Part of him not being able to have any senior matches in three years is due to "his decisions," which I am quite sure he will "feel good about" when his career is over; he has a strong personality, weighs information, makes decisions which he feels are right for him, and lives with them.  Kind of like an adult.