Flo's Quarter-Century Team (Recency bias?)

[BruceyB]

10 minutes ago, boathead said:

 

 

I'm not even convinced he was better than schlatter or Gillespie. 149 was special at that time.

Sent from my F92 E 5G using Tapatalk
 

 

Only 3 wrestlers have won more than a single title at 149 this millennium. Metcalf did it 2 times in his three years of eligibility. Retherford did it 3 times, and Yianni did it twice. Don't forget this little nugget about the 2008 weight class that Brent won..

 

[scourge165]

21 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

i don't look at it that way (perhaps i'm not looking at it the way i should)

i'm looking at very simply 3 > 2

who would win at their peak...idk.

who would win now??  we might find out soon  

Ok, so then fair to say you have Taylor behind Deiringer at 165?

That you have Abas at 125?
Starocci could be the only choice at 174
 

Your team would have to be 
125-Abas
133-Jurgens
141-Stieber
149-Zain
157-Nolf/Dake
165-Dieringer/Dake
174-Starocci
184-Brooks
197-Cael
HWT-Snyder

If you're strictly going by number of titles to determine HWT, one would assume you're doing the same at every weight, right?

And if you're saying Snyder 3 tips the scales toward hm over Stevenson, then Abas 4th tilts it toward him over Lee.
33-This would be tougher, but this would basically just be a spreadsheet team...

[fishbane]

7 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Abas 144-4
Losses
Freshmen year-3
(Duel Loss 4-3)Teague Moore DNP, 4th, 1st, 3rd
Eric Jurgens-2X 11-8, 5-3OT in the QFs and for 3rd place
Jurgens 3,3,1,1
Soph-1X
Eric Guerrero -Lost a 4-3 Match going UP a weight class in a Duel. Guerrero 5,1,1,1

That's 4 losses to a combined 8 NCs, 15 AA(no lower than 5th and 1 year DNP)
He avenged the loss to Moore in the QFs 3-3 TB
-Jurgens went up to 133 the next 3 years
-Guerrero was already up a weight and he had a National Champ at his weight

Did Abas lose to Moore in the Dual in January 1998?  If so I think Abas lost 4 matches his redshirt freshman year.  He also lost to Moore in the All Star Classic on 2/2/1998.  I thought the all-star classic counted as an official match back then, but maybe not.

1998 All Star Classic

118 Teague Moore - Oklahoma State Defeated Stephen Abas - Fresno State 9-8

Abas had defeated Moore at CKLV in 1997, the 1999 All star classic, and the NCAA semis in 1999.  They definitely didn't wrestle in the dual in the 1998-99 season - Abas went up and wrestled Guerrero.  I don't know if they wrested at CKLV in 1998, but if they did Abas won.  He was the first to win 4 CKLV titles.  Logan Stieber was the second though it took him 5 attempts.  That should cover all their folkstyle meetings in college.

1999 All Star Classic  

125 Stephen Abas - Fresno State Defeated Teague Moore - Oklahoma State 5-4

[scourge165]

2 minutes ago, fishbane said:

Did Abas lose to Moore in the Dual in January 1998?  If so I think Abas lost 4 matches his redshirt freshman year.  He also lost to Moore in the All Star Classic on 2/2/1998.  I thought the all-star classic counted as an official match back then, but maybe not.

1998 All Star Classic

118 Teague Moore - Oklahoma State Defeated Stephen Abas - Fresno State 9-8

Abas had defeated Moore at CKLV in 1997, the 1999 All star classic, and the NCAA semis in 1999.  They definitely didn't wrestle in the dual in the 1998-99 season - Abas went up and wrestled Guerrero.  I don't know if they wrested at CKLV in 1998, but if they did Abas won.  He was the first to win 4 CKLV titles.  Logan Stieber was the second though it took him 5 attempts.  That should cover all their folkstyle meetings in college.

1999 All Star Classic  

125 Stephen Abas - Fresno State Defeated Teague Moore - Oklahoma State 5-4

I believe Abas lost to Teague Moore in a duel as a Freshmen(so that'd be '98) but not certain. His official record is 144-4...so I don't think he had 4 losses as a Freshmen since we all know he lost the following year. 

He was unbeaten his final 3 years at at his weight and his lone loss was moving up so it could only have been his Freshmen year. He had one loss going into the NCAAs. Though given the score I got was 4-3 and that was the score of the Guerrero loss(before adding the riding time after the match which someone writing about it may not have understood) maybe it was the AS Classic and there was some confusion. 

Either way, lost to Moore, then Jurgens, Jurgens and when he moved up, Guerrero. And I guess technically, the All-Star Classic is a duel. 

 

 

Posting this just...because. 

 

You seem to have a better grasp on the details of his accomplishments of me, so I'd be inclined to take your word for it...it would almost certainly mean he beat Moore again in a duel though, right? 
They wrestled OK State every year...

 

I'm been looking but AI isn't verry "I" just yet. This is what I come up with(knowing he did lose 3 times as a Freshmen and pretty sure it wasn't his True Freshmen year)...

 

Quote

 

You said:

who else did Stephen Abas lose to as a freshmen other than Eric Juergens

ChatGPT said:

Stephen Abas’s only freshman losses at the 1998 NCAA Championships were both to Eric Juergens of Iowa—he fell 11–8 in the quarterfinals and then 5–3 in an overtime matchup for third place gobulldogs.com+15flowrestling.org+15youtube.com+15. Those were his only setbacks as a true freshman.

Although Abas finished his collegiate career with four losses, the other two occurred later:

• One loss in his sophomore year (1999)—a close 4–3 defeat to Eric Guerrero of Oklahoma State during a dual meet at 133 pounds johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com+1johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com+1johnnythompsonnum1.blogspot.com+8fresnoahof.org+8gobulldogs.com+8.

• The fourth was also against Guerrero that same season .

So to directly answer your question: as a freshman, he only lost to Eric Juergens—there were no other freshman defeats.

 

 

 

So...it can be hit or miss and this was clearly a miss. 

[fishbane]

20 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I believe Abas lost to Teague Moore in a duel as a Freshmen(so that'd be '98) but not certain. His official record is 144-4...so I don't think he had 4 losses as a Freshmen since we all know he lost the following year. 

He was unbeaten his final 3 years at at his weight and his lone loss was moving up so it could only have been his Freshmen year. He had one loss going into the NCAAs. Though given the score I got was 4-3 and that was the score of the Guerrero loss(before adding the riding time after the match which someone writing about it may not have understood) maybe it was the AS Classic and there was some confusion. 

Either way, lost to Moore, then Jurgens, Jurgens and when he moved up, Guerrero. And I guess technically, the All-Star Classic is a duel. 

I really don't know about the dual.  OSU and Fresno wrestled a dual on 1/31/1998 in Stillwater.  OSU won 39-4.  I couldn't find individual results for that match, but based on the team score it's theoretically possible either wrestler won though I reckon it's less likely Abas beat Moore by bonus to get 4 than Moore winning a regular decision.  The All-Star match was on 2/2/1998 in Buffalo, NY.  Perhaps neither wrestled in the dual electing to postpone the match two days?

 

[scourge165]

59 minutes ago, fishbane said:

I really don't know about the dual.  OSU and Fresno wrestled a dual on 1/31/1998 in Stillwater.  OSU won 39-4.  I couldn't find individual results for that match, but based on the team score it's theoretically possible either wrestler won though I reckon it's less likely Abas beat Moore by bonus to get 4 than Moore winning a regular decision.  The All-Star match was on 2/2/1998 in Buffalo, NY.  Perhaps neither wrestled in the dual electing to postpone the match two days?

 

 

Well...again, I found one source that said it was a 4-3 loss to Moore in a duel. They could have interpreted that as a duel. It could also be why the last time I asked ChatGTP is says he only has 2 losses as a Freshmen(which we know isn't true). 

It could be applying the modern rules of the All-Star Classic to that era...so assuming it doesn't go on your record when in fact it did back then?

Seems like the most likely scenario to me. 

 

Just found the duel.

It's gotta be the 9-8 All-Star Classic...Abas is undefeated 23-0.

I'm watching this and thinking Abas gets hosed a couple times, namely on the lack of NF at the end and then HE get *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* for stalling while riding?

 

I don't, Freshmen vs the National Champ that year though. Two scores at the end of the period that are easy calls now, but were called quite a bit differently back then. 

Thoughts?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

17 hours ago, BAC said:

I'm not sure what I'm saying that's confusing you or that you disagree with.  I think I'm being pretty clear.

It is not I that am confused.

1.  The quarter century team is not focused on folkstyle.  Flo was intentionally ambiguous.  The list started with the sole criteria of having been an NCAA champ.  After that, they have made it clear that it is up to the individual fan.  If you want it to be: Freestyle, career, single season, final form, college only... whatever you want--- it is up to you the voter.fan.

2.  Because they never won a D1 NCAA championship, Cejudo and Gilman are not eligible for the quarter century team.  They may have superior FS credentials, but the starting point is that they needed to have won an NCAA title.

You may not like the ambiguity, but I didn't make the rules.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

17 hours ago, fishbane said:

The reason for mentioning not wrestling Glory and the relatively weak competition Lee faced in 2020 and 2021 was two fold.  It refutes the FRL presumption that Lee had a tougher schedule than Abas.  It also brings into question how healthy and unaffected Lee was with a torn ACL.  Looking dominant against lesser competition doesn't mean he wasn't limited by the injury.  Lee wrestled his senior year in high school with a torn ACL.  He was dominant and a prohibitive favorite when he lost to DeSanto in the state final. 

He was never scheduled to face Glory in 2019-2020.  Glory was on the other side of the bracket at midlands and struggling mightily.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

14 hours ago, scourge165 said:

 

Spencer Lee 98-6(6 MFF that now count as losses, but...didn't at the time, so not fair to use it against him).
 

All fair points throughout the post.  Just a little nitpick on the rules: I think only three of the MFF would count as losses.  I think only the first one at each event is a loss.

But you are very fair to say that those weren't the rules at the time, so they can't be counted against him.  I think if today's rules were in effect in 2019-2020, he probably doesn't wrestle in the Midlands at all.  

[BAC]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It is not I that am confused.

1.  The quarter century team is not focused on folkstyle.  Flo was intentionally ambiguous.  The list started with the sole criteria of having been an NCAA champ.  After that, they have made it clear that it is up to the individual fan.  If you want it to be: Freestyle, career, single season, final form, college only... whatever you want--- it is up to you the voter.fan.

2.  Because they never won a D1 NCAA championship, Cejudo and Gilman are not eligible for the quarter century team.  They may have superior FS credentials, but the starting point is that they needed to have won an NCAA title.

You may not like the ambiguity, but I didn't make the rules.

To quote Andy from Shawshank Redemption:

"Don't be so obtuse."

The title of the team they're assembling is literally the "2025 NCAA Quarter Century Team," according to them.  Not the 2025 Quarter Century Team.  It's about NCAAs.

A NCAA title is a prerequisite. They could have made a world/Olympic medal a prerequisite.  They didn't.

Read their description of the finalists they selected for 125 (here). Spencer has an Olympic silver. They don't even mention it.  Abas has an Olympic medal.  They don't even mention it.  They don't mention international accomplishments at all.  (Two of the four finalists have none.)  They *only* mention NCAA accomplishments.  Which makes sense, since it is -- again -- the "2025 NCAA Quarter Century Team."

If your point is Flo didn't impose specific rules or criteria for fan voting, that's true.  If you want, you can vote for the guy with the longest win streak, the stubbiest nose, the nicest haircut.  But it would still be nonsensical to say, "Just wait til Abas gets his sweet haircut this weekend, that'll make this discussion moot."  The fact that they don't rule out a given criteria doesn't mean its determinative, or even relevant. 

To be fair (and I posted this earlier), I do think freestyle is relevant when someone's earned a medal during, or immediately after, their NCAA career -- especially if they do so using largely folkstyle technique.  They gives us broader insight to how good they were at their NCAA peak, and helps us compare wrestlers across generations.  Apparently Flo agrees, as in the 133lb discussion, they mention Vito's world title between his Jr and Sr years. Rightly.  It suggests the peak he reached after his Jr year was super high, and helps offset the significance of his losses to Crookham the following year.

At the same time, a world medal well after graduation is less relevant, since the greater the delay, the harder it is to use as a proxy for how good someone was when they were an NCAA wrestler.  So for example, JB's gold just months after graduating (knocking off the 2x defending Russian world champ) is more telling than, say, his gold in 2022, or DT's world gold 4 years after he graduated.  A lot happened in between.

Back to Abas/Lee:  Both got an Olympic silver 2 years after graduating. Not super relevant given passage of time, but does show a world-level skillset at a somewhat proximate time. Had Abas continued to win world medals after that, it wouldn't really tell us any more or less about how good he was as an NCAA wrestler.  Same with Lee.  It'd move them up on Flo's freestyle-heavy "top 100" list (here), just not this one.

Edited Friday at 01:29 PM by BAC

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, BAC said:

To quote Andy from Shawshank Redemption:

"Don't be so obtuse."

The title of the team they're assembling is literally the "2025 NCAA Quarter Century Team," according to them.  Not the 2025 Quarter Century Team.  It's about NCAAs.

A NCAA title is a prerequisite. They could have made a world/Olympic medal a prerequisite.  They didn't.

Read their description of the finalists they selected for 125 (here). Spencer has an Olympic silver. They don't even mention it.  Abas has an Olympic medal.  They don't even mention it.  They don't mention international accomplishments at all.  (Two of the four finalists have none.)  They *only* mention NCAA accomplishments.  Which makes sense, since it is -- again -- the "2025 NCAA Quarter Century Team."

If your point is Flo didn't impose specific rules or criteria for fan voting, that's true.  If you want, you can vote for the guy with the longest win streak, the stubbiest nose, the nicest haircut.  But it would still be nonsensical to say, "Just wait til Abas gets his haircut this weekend."  The fact that they don't rule out a given criteria, doesn't mean its determinative, or even relevant. 

To be fair (and I posted this earlier), I do think freestyle is relevant when someone's earned a medal during, or immediately after, their NCAA career -- especially if they do so using largely folkstyle technique.  They gives us broader insight to how good they were at their NCAA peak, and helps us compare wrestlers across generations.  Apparently Flo agrees, as in the 133lb discussion, they mention Vito's world title between his Jr and Sr years. Rightly.  It suggests the peak he reached after his Jr year was super high, and helps offset the significance of his losses to Crookham the following year.

At the same time, a world medal well after graduation is less relevant, since the greater the delay, the harder it is to use as a proxy for how good someone was when they were an NCAA wrestler.  So for example, JB's gold just months after graduating (knocking off the 2x defending Russian world champ) is more telling than, say, his gold in 2022, or DT's world gold 4 years after he graduated.  A lot happened in between.

Back to Abas/Lee:  Both got an Olympic silver 2 years after graduating. Not super relevant given passage of time, but does show a world-level skillset at a somewhat proximate time. Had Abas continued to win world medals after that, it wouldn't really tell us any more or less about how good he was as an NCAA wrestler.  Same with Lee.  It'd move them up on Flo's freestyle-heavy "top 100" list (here), just not this one.

That is a lot of writing that no one will read.

[BAC]

3 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

That is a lot of writing that no one will read.

[Eagle26]

Best career and best at their peak are two totally different things. I think the no criteria does generate more discussion but it helps to clarify which one so I will try both. 
 

Best NCAA career (I took a little liberty with multiple weight classes but I don’t think you can beat this team with better NCAA finishes). 

125 - Abas

133 - Stieber

141 - Yianni 

149 - Retherford

157 - Nolf

165 - Dake

174 - Starocci 

184 - Brooks

197 - Cael 

285 - Snyder

 

Best at peak (these weights are only for when the wrestler was at their peak IMO). Some commentary for context. 
 

125 - Lee - very rarely if ever got to see peak Spencer Lee in college but at his best, I’d pick him over anyone. 

133 - Vito - Senior year he was untouchable. 

141 - Stieber - can’t think of any 141 I’d pick over him. 

149 - Caldwell - controversial pick I know, but at his best, I think he beats anyone else

157 - Dake - Jr. year Dake still beats out Nolf at his peak 

165 - Burroughs - Senior year JB may be one of the best NCAA wrestlers we have ever seen. 

174 - Askren - talking peak here, and I know it’s debatable but don’t see anyone who beats Sr. Year Askren

184 - Nickal - this is a tough pick for me (because I’m not really a fan), but unless I can take Cael at both weights (Jr. Cael wins here too), I think he’s the best option. Jr. Brooks took a loss as did Sr. Ruth. Jr. Nickals was undefeated with an insane bonus percentage.

197 - Cael - enough said

285 - Gable - if you all think Snyder beats the best version of Steveson while giving up 40 pounds, y’all are delusional  

[Gantry]

38 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

165 - Burroughs - Senior year JB may be one of the best NCAA wrestlers we have ever seen. 

Obviously one of the greats, but people forget that senior year JB was darn close to losing to Tyler Caldwell at the Big 12 finals.  

Am I crazy for thinking sophomore year Ed Ruth was his peak and he'd have a chance against senior Askren?  I think Ed lost a bit of the fire by the end of his collegiate career.   I wouldn't favor Ruth, but there's a chance imo.  Man I would love to see it

[Eagle26]

2 hours ago, Gantry said:

Obviously one of the greats, but people forget that senior year JB was darn close to losing to Tyler Caldwell at the Big 12 finals.  

Am I crazy for thinking sophomore year Ed Ruth was his peak and he'd have a chance against senior Askren?  I think Ed lost a bit of the fire by the end of his collegiate career.   I wouldn't favor Ruth, but there's a chance imo.  Man I would love to see it

Regarding JB, I think Caldwell’s whole strategy was to just stall and keep it as close as possible and hope to steal it at the end (can’t blame him… it was his best chance). If that’s your goal it’s easier to keep it close, but hard to pull out the W. JB was clutch in those close matches through the first several years of his world titles. He was 3-0 vs Caldwell that year including a major in the NCAA finals. I don’t think that close win takes anything away from JB. In fact it may add that he was diverse enough to pull out a win against a very defensive opponent. 
 

Regarding Ruth, I think you have a fair point. I think he often looked like he lacked interest (don’t know if that was the case - just eye test). If he is locked in and at his best, yeah you might be right that he is the best 174 in the last 25 years. 

[scourge165]

On 6/12/2025 at 4:20 PM, BruceyB said:

Only 3 wrestlers have won more than a single title at 149 this millennium. Metcalf did it 2 times in his three years of eligibility. Retherford did it 3 times, and Yianni did it twice. Don't forget this little nugget about the 2008 weight class that Brent won..

 

I don't like Metcalf(the Wrestler...not the human, I don't know him). 

I just found so much of what he did to be performative and I don't care for the extra shoves and the pushing yourself up off a guys head and the extra shove out of bounds. It's...fake tough to me...

BUT...when I saw someone say he didn't belong in the discussion, I thought that was...ridiculous. 

I think it's a given that as a Freshmen, he'd have competed for an NCAA Title. I think he'd have won it...which would have made that Caldwell match all the more important historically, but...still, he was the best Wrestler in the Country. Just as I still think Stevenson was the best Wrestler at HWT this year and Spencer Lee at 125 a few years ago. Not taking anything away from Caldwell. He did it twice. He wasn't afraid to pull the trigger and Metcalf's style was a detriment in that match, but IF you give Metcalf a 4th year, I think it'd be a REALLY tough call. 

 

But I don't know how you go against Retherford. 3X at 149...

 

 

17 hours ago, Gantry said:

Am I crazy for thinking sophomore year Ed Ruth was his peak and he'd have a chance against senior Askren?  I think Ed lost a bit of the fire by the end of his collegiate career.   I wouldn't favor Ruth, but there's a chance imo.  Man I would love to see it

I don't think Ruth ever let his foot off the gas, I just think the sport got easier for him.

Are you crazy for thinking a guy who went 3/1/1/1 would beat a guy who went 2/2/1/1? No...of course not. Ruth is an all-time great. Maybe he beats Starocci and Brooks. He was so smooth and so easy, relaxed. 

But it's an opinion. 

 

It comes down to how do you think Askren scores on Starocci/Ruth vs how do you think they score on him.

I think Starocci was so methodical and Ruth was similar, but he was also more aggressive pulling he trigger in other area's that it may have actually hurt him. 

[scourge165]

18 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

149 - Caldwell - controversial pick I know, but at his best, I think he beats anyone else

Very. I don't think he's touching Zain. I think Metcalf tried to bully guys a bit too much and got out of position and Caldwell let it fly, but...for instance, Soph Dake is dominating Caldwell...IMO. 

Also, didn't Metcalf tech Caldwell that year? May have been the All-Star Classic, but, I thought he teched him the same year he lost. Caldwell got the spladdle, Metcalf came back and just overwhelmed him. But I could be off on the year. 

 

18 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

184 - Nickal - this is a tough pick for me (because I’m not really a fan), but unless I can take Cael at both weights (Jr. Cael wins here too), I think he’s the best option. Jr. Brooks took a loss as did Sr. Ruth. Jr. Nickals was undefeated with an insane bonus percentage.

He took a loss vs an Olympic Bronze Medalist. 

Who he lost to has to matter, no?

Ruth lost to a guy who went 3,1,1,2

I don't think Nickal is beating Brooks. I just think Brooks had tougher brackets and Ryan Preisch and Nicholas Gravina, 1 AA between them(I think) wrestled Nickal to a 1 point match. He still won... but Brooks...I mean, the Olympic Bronze Medalist beating him in the B1Gs in OT...

18 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

165 - Burroughs - Senior year JB may be one of the best NCAA wrestlers we have ever seen. 

174 - Askren - talking peak here, and I know it’s debatable but don’t see anyone who beats Sr. Year Askren

I think the way JB was ascending may be coloring that view. I remember him having a GREAT match with Andrew Howe where he jumped out to a lead and Howe just kept coming back and wearing him down. JB wasn't quite there yet(in terms of his peak) but if you think he beats Dake, Taylor...even Mesenbrink...I can see it.

Askren, I think his peak year was his Jr year. What he did to Herbert and just how free he wrestled.

The thing I'm doing is looking at how Starocci would Wrestle him NOW where he can limit the scoring and he's always in position, but nobody could do that to Askren. Take that Askren and put him in the 2025 NCAAs and I think Starocci beats him. 

 

But I can see the last two...I definitely can't see the two before that and I don't know who wins peak Abas vs peak Lee, so sure! 

 

They're definitely different perspectives and I don't have a problem with Askren over Starocci because...again, I think just going by tittles is boring and misleading. 

 

Not that I have a problem with any, the only one I think is a bit out there is Caldwell, but he did put on a display vs Metcalf!

[Eagle26]

2 hours ago, scourge165 said:

Very. I don't think he's touching Zain. I think Metcalf tried to bully guys a bit too much and got out of position and Caldwell let it fly, but...for instance, Soph Dake is dominating Caldwell...IMO. 

Also, didn't Metcalf tech Caldwell that year? May have been the All-Star Classic, but, I thought he teched him the same year he lost. Caldwell got the spladdle, Metcalf came back and just overwhelmed him. But I could be off on the year. 

 

He took a loss vs an Olympic Bronze Medalist. 

Who he lost to has to matter, no?

Ruth lost to a guy who went 3,1,1,2

I don't think Nickal is beating Brooks. I just think Brooks had tougher brackets and Ryan Preisch and Nicholas Gravina, 1 AA between them(I think) wrestled Nickal to a 1 point match. He still won... but Brooks...I mean, the Olympic Bronze Medalist beating him in the B1Gs in OT...

I think the way JB was ascending may be coloring that view. I remember him having a GREAT match with Andrew Howe where he jumped out to a lead and Howe just kept coming back and wearing him down. JB wasn't quite there yet(in terms of his peak) but if you think he beats Dake, Taylor...even Mesenbrink...I can see it.

Askren, I think his peak year was his Jr year. What he did to Herbert and just how free he wrestled.

The thing I'm doing is looking at how Starocci would Wrestle him NOW where he can limit the scoring and he's always in position, but nobody could do that to Askren. Take that Askren and put him in the 2025 NCAAs and I think Starocci beats him. 

 

But I can see the last two...I definitely can't see the two before that and I don't know who wins peak Abas vs peak Lee, so sure! 

 

They're definitely different perspectives and I don't have a problem with Askren over Starocci because...again, I think just going by tittles is boring and misleading. 

 

Not that I have a problem with any, the only one I think is a bit out there is Caldwell, but he did put on a display vs Metcalf!

Fair on Caldwell… I wanted to pick at least one spicy one! I will add that Metcalf is pretty similar to Zane IMO, and Sophomore Dake was nowhere near jr. And sr. Dake. He lost to Donnie Vinson and Kevin LeValley that year. No way that Dake is better than Caldwell at his peak. Zane probably is the best pick, but 149 was a tougher weight in Caldwells day and he dominated a guy who would’ve been known as an all time great if it wasn’t for that match. 
 

Brooks lost to Marcus Coleman his last year at 184.

 

Starocci probably does beat Askren if you consider the advancement in wrestling techniques. He knows how to stop funk now. Askren was just innovative and ahead of his time. So I still think peak Askren was “better” if that makes sense. 

[scourge165]

6 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

Fair on Caldwell… I wanted to pick at least one spicy one! I will add that Metcalf is pretty similar to Zane IMO, and Sophomore Dake was nowhere near jr. And sr. Dake. He lost to Donnie Vinson and Kevin LeValley that year. No way that Dake is better than Caldwell at his peak. Zane probably is the best pick, but 149 was a tougher weight in Caldwells day and he dominated a guy who would’ve been known as an all time great if it wasn’t for that match. 
 

Brooks lost to Marcus Coleman his last year at 184.

 

Starocci probably does beat Askren if you consider the advancement in wrestling techniques. He knows how to stop funk now. Askren was just innovative and ahead of his time. So I still think peak Askren was “better” if that makes sense. 

I mean...I'm not saying you're "wrong." This is a  totally subjective exercise to begin with and frankly a little pointless.... other than just BSing and having fun!

Who's better, LeBron or Jordan, Brady or Montana...it's really all just subjective and people love arguing them. 

I think Dake, peak Dake at 149 was better at the NCAAs and would have beaten Caldwell. I also think Metcalf is right up there with Zain and anyone else at 149. That would seem contradictory, I get that.

But I'm also thinking about that Caldwell 19-3 loss vs Metcalf in the same season he beat Metcalf by throwing the kitchen sink at him. 

I see a 149 NCAA Dake not being scored on, at LEAST not easily...and then just riding the hell out of Caldwell. But being as it's a fictional matchup... so you can't be wrong. I'd also argue that...149 when Caldwell won it wasn't particularly tough relative to any other year. Kyle Ruschell took a 3rd, Bryce Saddoris was in the semis. Both tough Wrestlers, but not quite like the prior year with Burroughs, and that "toughest weight ever," discussion. 

 

Brooks did lose to Marcus Coleman. That's my mistake. 

 

And yes, Askren being ahead of his time and you're belief that he was better at his "peak" definitely makes sense to me.

All these make sense to me. Each point. Askren's... appearance also belied his strength and physical ability. I remember Dana White insulting him physically, but anyone remember him in on a single, arms stretched out, Jake Herbert, a BIG '74 pounder and Askren was on his stomach, Herbert was heavy hipping the hell out of him, he was trying to break his grip to get around behind and he couldn't. 

Askren's grip was insane and his shoulder strength AND flexibility was...just freakish.  I don't think there's a Wrestler who could match him in that regard.