Article about the rise of a Dual State

[Doublehalf]

56 minutes ago, Doublehalf said:

And why is this?   D's have been in charge of urban areas for generations.  They are the one's that are the champions of the poor and people of color.   Your statement is more an indictment of the status quo as built by the D's than the utopia of educating everyone the same.  

This is the problem with trying to debate with right wing people and it's right out of the literal playbook Karl Rove developed as a guide to arguing with those on the left wing..

 

The entire premise of the question is incorrect/ non-sensical. Why? Because states are the ones with the substantial legal authority over education except in some rare cases. States education departments set the rules and standards and cities do not run schools directly... States set graduation requirements, testing requirements, teacher certifications, curriculums and school funding standards. 
 

You might as well ask questions like "why aren't more squares triangles??" 

We could all try to give the explanation but the point is your question in its premise is completely ignorant. You aren't even trying to ask the right questions, just throw out *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* and drag everyone down to a level that doesn't have any real thought before speaking and then trying to insinuate the person you're debating is saying something they never were in the first place.
 

It is either a masterful job at executing the Rove playbook or realtime example of why knowledge and education challenging ones held beliefs are of vital importance.

This is a most prime example of "don't wrestle with a pig because you'll both get dirty and the pig likes it."

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:46 PM by Doublehalf

[Caveira]

5 minutes ago, Doublehalf said:

This is the problem with trying to debate with right wing people and it's right out of the literal playbook Karl Rove developed as a guide to arguing with those on the left wing..

 

The entire premise of the question is incorrect/ non-sensical. Why? Because states are the ones with the substantial legal authority over education except in some rare cases. States education departments set the rules and standards and cities do not run schools directly... States set graduation requirements, testing requirements, teacher certifications, curriculums and school funding standards. 
 

You might as well ask questions like "why aren't more squares triangles??" 

We could all try to give the explanation but the point is your question in its premise is completely ignorant. You aren't even trying to ask the right questions, just throw out *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* and drag everyone down to a level that doesn't have any real thought before speaking and then trying to insinuate the person you're debating is saying something they never were in the first place.
 

It is either a masterful job at executing the Rove playbook or realtime example of why knowledge and education challenging ones held beliefs are of vital importance.

This is a most prime example of "don't wrestle with a pig because you'll both get dirty and the pig likes it."

 

Does Illinois run the Chicago public school system ?   Chicago is good at education right?
 

No, Illinois does not directly run the Chicago Public Schools (CPS) — the City of Chicago does through a local school board.

Here's how it works:

• Chicago Public Schools (CPS) is a local school district, officially known as Chicago School District #299.

• It is governed by the Chicago Board of Education, which historically has been appointed by the Mayor of Chicago.

• As of 2024–2027, CPS is transitioning to an elected school board system, per Illinois state legislation. By 2027, all school board members will be elected.

---

Role of the State of Illinois:

• The Illinois State Board of Education (ISBE) oversees all public education in the state and sets curriculum standards, testing requirements, and funding formulas.

• However, it does not run Chicago schools day to day.

• The state can intervene in extreme cases (e.g. financial insolvency, major underperformance), but that’s rare.

---

In Summary:

•  City of Chicago runs CPS through its Board of Education.

•  Illinois oversees all districts generally but does not operate CPS directly.

[jross]

It is interesting to read that poor rural areas more often perform better in education than poor urban areas, even when the $ per student is much higher in the urban setting.  It is also interesting that progressive policies like increased education funding, social services, or equity programs don’t always translate to better academic outcomes.  Should poor families from historical inequities relocate to rural areas to increase their test scores and graduation rates?

[JimmySpeaks]

2 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

Bro... you are coming off as absolutely insane with this post to think there is a moral equivalency to what Bernard said vs what you are saying.

For chrissakes man, why do you people have such a hard on for the world to be all white, allow for less opportunities for those that aren't and to make those that are different feel alienated and unsafe....

I just really can't understand this complete lack of empathy for humanity and how that has somehow been twisted to being some kind of weakness. Your brain is operating on an evolutionary level of a caveman... Your kind of people can only empathize with a group until a specific circumstance happens directly to you or someone close to you that you care about. 
 

A society where there are people with diverse beliefs (assuming those beliefs aren't causing widespread pain and suffering) have equal opportunities and places to 'be' is not a bad thing.... If you have a problem with DEI being used in some capacity you don't agree with that's fine, show some data/examples but it's just coming off like you are a bigot...

 

I swear if we went back in history your way of thinking aligns with those that wanted separate water fountains for blacks, schools (which you still agree with it sounds like only not based on race) and women to freely choose what they want to do. 
 

The world has a way of humbling all of us and opening our eyes to things we can't see and I just hope when it happens to you it doesn't negatively impact the health of you or anyone you love.
 

 

 

Hard on for the world to be white.  That’s funny.  It’s only 20% white sooooooooooo.  Keep playing the card 

[JimmySpeaks]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

The utopia you just described of all kids being educated the same from the start doesn't exist and just exacerbates how little you know about the world... I never had to take a class to learn to have an open mind and gain perspectives that weren't  solely my own. 

My guess is you live within an hour of where you grew up and the slim chance you have ever been out of the country was on a trip to an all inclusive resort in Mexico. You probably live far enough from a major metro area you have little exposure to people that have a different way of thinking than you. You crave your safe spaces that you deride others for wanting you just don't realize your safe spaces are in a wrestling room or weightlifting gym or talking about 'woke leftists' with other non-evolved acquaintances that think just like you do. 
 

If you were physically capable of having a nuanced conversation I would say it's worth engaging with you to hear why you actually believe the things you do and get to a root cause of those beliefs but clearly that's not possible so I think my time spent conversing with you ends here.

Communism is utopia 

[red viking]

1 minute ago, jross said:

It is interesting to read that poor rural areas more often perform better in education than poor urban areas, even when the $ per student is much higher in the urban setting.  It is also interesting that progressive policies like increased education funding, social services, or equity programs don’t always translate to better academic outcomes.  Should poor families from historical inequities relocate to rural areas to increase their test scores and graduation rates?

Cost of living is much lower in poor rural areas than poor urban areas. Not an apples to apples comparison. The urban schools also typically are forced to deal with more special-needs kids while the smaller town schools aren't, not to the same extent at least. 

[Doublehalf]

4 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Does Illinois run the Chicago public school system ?   Chicago is good at education right?
 

 

No, Illinois does not directly run the Chicago Public Schools (CPS) — the City of Chicago does through a local school board.

Here's how it works:

• Chicago Public Schools (CPS) is a local school district, officially known as Chicago School District #299.

• It is governed by the Chicago Board of Education, which historically has been appointed by the Mayor of Chicago.

• As of 2024–2027, CPS is transitioning to an elected school board system, per Illinois state legislation. By 2027, all school board members will be elected.

---

Role of the State of Illinois:

• The Illinois State Board of Education (ISBE) oversees all public education in the state and sets curriculum standards, testing requirements, and funding formulas.

• However, it does not run Chicago schools day to day.

• The state can intervene in extreme cases (e.g. financial insolvency, major underperformance), but that’s rare.

---

In Summary:

•  City of Chicago runs CPS through its Board of Education.

•  Illinois oversees all districts generally but does not operate CPS directly.

Debating you guys is like being on a airdyne nonstop.... if you read my post I literally said except in rare cases and you went on to list the rare case... 

Absolutely hilarious...

 

In the U.S., cities do not typically control education directly — that’s a common misconception.

 

Here’s how it typically works:

 

 

Most Public Schools Are Run by

Independent School Districts

 

 

• Public schools are usually governed by local school boards.
• These boards are separate from city government.
• School districts are legally created by the state.
• Example: In most places, the mayor or city council has no direct authority over schools.

 

 

 

The Role of Cities

 

 

• Cities might provide supporting services (school resource officers, after-school programs, crossing guards).
• Cities influence education indirectly through:
  • Housing policies (affecting school demographics)
  • Tax policy (local funding for schools in some cases)
  • Political pressure (mayor/council may campaign on education issues)
•  
• But day-to-day decisions — hiring teachers, running schools, choosing curriculum — are not controlled by the city.

 

 

 

Exceptions —

Mayoral Control

 

 

• In some large cities, the city government has been given more direct authority by the state — this is called mayoral control.
• Examples:
  • New York City — Mayor controls NYC Department of Education.
  • Boston — Mayor appoints school board members.
  • Chicago (as of 2024-2027, moving from mayor-appointed to elected board).
•  
• This model is relatively rare — maybe 15–20 major cities use some form of mayoral control out of thousands of districts nationwide.

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:56 PM by Doublehalf

[JimmySpeaks]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

The utopia you just described of all kids being educated the same from the start doesn't exist and just exacerbates how little you know about the world... I never had to take a class to learn to have an open mind and gain perspectives that weren't  solely my own. 

My guess is you live within an hour of where you grew up and the slim chance you have ever been out of the country was on a trip to an all inclusive resort in Mexico. You probably live far enough from a major metro area you have little exposure to people that have a different way of thinking than you. You crave your safe spaces that you deride others for wanting you just don't realize your safe spaces are in a wrestling room or weightlifting gym or talking about 'woke leftists' with other non-evolved acquaintances that think just like you do. 
 

If you were physically capable of having a nuanced conversation I would say it's worth engaging with you to hear why you actually believe the things you do and get to a root cause of those beliefs but clearly that's not possible so I think my time spent conversing with you ends here.

There the woke commie goes playing the you’ve never left home and you’re uneducated card.  It’s unbelievable how arrogant you are.  And it’s typical of libtards to cut and run. 

Edited Tuesday at 06:56 PM by JimmySpeaks

[Tripnsweep]

38 minutes ago, jross said:

No, a "Society and Identity" (this is the actual class name) class is required for everyone.  This includes racial identity, gender identity, and sexual identity.  Two more classes are required for DI with US and Global (subset selection).  Even more Critical Thinking credits are required and there is broader selection.  

Show us where it is required then. 

[Caveira]

10 minutes ago, Doublehalf said:

Debating you guys is like being on a airdyne nonstop.... if you read my post I literally said except in rare cases and you went on to list the rare case... 

Absolutely hilarious...

 

In the U.S., cities do not typically control education directly — that’s a common misconception.

 

Here’s how it typically works:

 

 

Most Public Schools Are Run by

Independent School Districts

 

 

• Public schools are usually governed by local school boards.
• These boards are separate from city government.
• School districts are legally created by the state.
• Example: In most places, the mayor or city council has no direct authority over schools.

 

 

 

The Role of Cities

 

 

• Cities might provide supporting services (school resource officers, after-school programs, crossing guards).
• Cities influence education indirectly through:
  • Housing policies (affecting school demographics)
  • Tax policy (local funding for schools in some cases)
  • Political pressure (mayor/council may campaign on education issues)
•  
• But day-to-day decisions — hiring teachers, running schools, choosing curriculum — are not controlled by the city.

 

 

 

Exceptions —

Mayoral Control

 

 

• In some large cities, the city government has been given more direct authority by the state — this is called mayoral control.
• Examples:
  • New York City — Mayor controls NYC Department of Education.
  • Boston — Mayor appoints school board members.
  • Chicago (as of 2024-2027, moving from mayor-appointed to elected board).
•  
• This model is relatively rare — maybe 15–20 major cities use some form of mayoral control out of thousands of districts nationwide.

 

 

The mayor of Chicago is also a Chicago public school lackey.   

[JimmySpeaks]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

This wasn't at all the path I was going down and no where in my post did I say I was. It was a response to your moronic comment about democrats being in charge and kids not all having the same opportunities. To which I responded to that idiotic question with a  list of the best and worst states in the US for testing scores and by far the democratically lead states crushed the GOP.

 

I would 100% agree the US is falling behind the rest of the worlds top countries when it comes to education that's no surprise with the GOPs war on education/knowledge. 

In 1979 when Jimmy Carter created the department of education America was a leader.  It’s been down hill ever since.  

Edited Tuesday at 07:32 PM by JimmySpeaks

[jross]

44 minutes ago, uncle bernard said:

Right. When you go to College, you are trusting the experts who run that College to decide what the proper curriculum is. Your consumer choice is where/whether you attend, not what you have to take when you get there. 

This is a great example of entitlement culture. You don't get to demand the world cater to your every desire. You keep acting like being required to take a class *about* something means you have to believe or endorse everything that's said in that class. That's just stupid.

You think it's indoctrination because you've been indoctrinated to believe that everything that even talks about gender, race, etc...is inherently evil. What you're actually mad about is that the colleges *aren't indoctrinating* students with *your beliefs.*

Controversial ideologies taught with the intent to persuade, rather than presented neutrally, are problematic. Max Dean provided a clear example of it not being okay to dissent...  Even discussing certain topics neutrally risks normalizing harmful ideas. For example, a course on Black activism might lead students to view Black Lives Matter riots as peaceful.  

 

[Scouts Honor]

2 hours ago, Doublehalf said:

The utopia you just described of all kids being educated the same from the start doesn't exist and just exacerbates how little you know about the world... I never had to take a class to learn to have an open mind and gain perspectives that weren't  solely my own. 

My guess is you live within an hour of where you grew up and the slim chance you have ever been out of the country was on a trip to an all inclusive resort in Mexico. You probably live far enough from a major metro area you have little exposure to people that have a different way of thinking than you. You crave your safe spaces that you deride others for wanting you just don't realize your safe spaces are in a wrestling room or weightlifting gym or talking about 'woke leftists' with other non-evolved acquaintances that think just like you do. 
 

If you were physically capable of having a nuanced conversation I would say it's worth engaging with you to hear why you actually believe the things you do and get to a root cause of those beliefs but clearly that's not possible so I think my time spent conversing with you ends here.

why do some people refuse to be educated?

[Scouts Honor]

2 hours ago, uncle bernard said:

 

Should we liquidate the poor?

 

RV thinks anyone not viable should be removed 

[jross]

33 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

Show us where it is required then. 

If we have an offline conversation, I'd be happy to.  

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

Really bad move by you even treading down this path... 

 

 

Example of Current (Recent) Results

(These rankings can shift slightly year to year; here’s a rough consistent pattern based on recent composite data:)

Most Educated / Top Performing (Children)	Least Educated / Poor Performing (Children)
Massachusetts	New Mexico
New Jersey	Louisiana
Connecticut	Mississippi
Vermont	West Virginia
New Hampshire	Alabama
Minnesota	Nevada
Virginia	Oklahoma

 

 

 

Sources of Rankings

 

 

Several organizations already produce rankings of “best” and “worst” states for education, often using a composite of the above:

 

• WalletHub — annual Best & Worst School Systems report.
• US News & World Report — Best States for Education rankings.
• Education Week — publishes Quality Counts report.
• NAEP Data Explorer — allows you to pull raw test score data directly.

 

I may be a little fuzzy but tell me which parties typically have control of the governorships and state legislatures in those states???
 

In our language I would say as far as your argument goes, you just got teched...

so they are so educated... why is there so much homelessness and strife in the communities

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

This is the problem with trying to debate with right wing people and it's right out of the literal playbook Karl Rove developed as a guide to arguing with those on the left wing..

 

The entire premise of the question is incorrect/ non-sensical. Why? Because states are the ones with the substantial legal authority over education except in some rare cases. States education departments set the rules and standards and cities do not run schools directly... States set graduation requirements, testing requirements, teacher certifications, curriculums and school funding standards. 
 

You might as well ask questions like "why aren't more squares triangles??" 

We could all try to give the explanation but the point is your question in its premise is completely ignorant. You aren't even trying to ask the right questions, just throw out *I poop my pants, don't laugh at me* and drag everyone down to a level that doesn't have any real thought before speaking and then trying to insinuate the person you're debating is saying something they never were in the first place.
 

It is either a masterful job at executing the Rove playbook or realtime example of why knowledge and education challenging ones held beliefs are of vital importance.

This is a most prime example of "don't wrestle with a pig because you'll both get dirty and the pig likes it."

 

i bet i know which playbook you read from 

[Scouts Honor]

57 minutes ago, jross said:

It is interesting to read that poor rural areas more often perform better in education than poor urban areas, even when the $ per student is much higher in the urban setting.  It is also interesting that progressive policies like increased education funding, social services, or equity programs don’t always translate to better academic outcomes.  Should poor families from historical inequities relocate to rural areas to increase their test scores and graduation rates?

i give you UNIONS

[Scouts Honor]

55 minutes ago, red viking said:

Cost of living is much lower in poor rural areas than poor urban areas. Not an apples to apples comparison. The urban schools also typically are forced to deal with more special-needs kids while the smaller town schools aren't, not to the same extent at least. 

so why dont the kids learn and get out? 

[Scouts Honor]

i wouldn't want to live under that type of low expectation racism either 

[jross]

The Detroit Public Schools Community District landed $28,919 per student.  Look at these test scores:

https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2024/are-poor-urban-districts-really-underfunded

https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/michigan/districts/detroit-public-schools-community-district-113404

[uncle bernard]

11 minutes ago, jross said:

Controversial ideologies taught with the intent to persuade, rather than presented neutrally, are problematic. Max Dean provided a clear example of it not being okay to dissent...  Even discussing certain topics neutrally risks normalizing harmful ideas. For example, a course on Black activism might lead students to view Black Lives Matter riots as peaceful.  

 

Sure, but that's not what's happening.

You're extrapolating 1 anecdote that we don't even know is true and claiming it's representative of normal college experiences.

And you've also confirmed here that what I said earlier is true. You're not mad about "indoctrination." You're mad that students aren't being indoctrinated with your ideas.

You don't understand what education is. You don't understand academic freedom. You want the world to cater to your beliefs because you are entitled.

[uncle bernard]

10 minutes ago, jross said:

If we have an offline conversation, I'd be happy to.  

If you DM me, I will look at the requirements and admit I was wrong publicly on here.

[Scouts Honor]

7 minutes ago, jross said:

The Detroit Public Schools Community District landed $28,919 per student.  Look at these test scores:

https://www.mackinac.org/blog/2024/are-poor-urban-districts-really-underfunded

https://www.usnews.com/education/k12/michigan/districts/detroit-public-schools-community-district-113404

i can almost guarantee that most of the money goes to admin.

[jross]

Simple thoughts...

They shouldn't be asking how to give the schools more funding, hell a $100 subscription to AI will teach math/reading more effectively and efficiently than many public schools...  They should be asking how to improve parenting and community.  It's one of the differences between rural and urban areas.  Detroit would be better off giving $20K directly to the parents whose kids make As, have high attendance, and are well-behaved.

Obviously needs more thought to avoid gaming the system.

"Boy I will whip your ass before you skip school.  And you better have that homework done."

Only half joking.