All this transgender athlete fuss lately. . .

[scourge165]

16 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

We are going to disagree on what we know. I understand that we know the differences in men and woman after puberty. What I think we need more information on his what happens when someone transitions and goes through hormone treatment. How much does it effect bone density etc? Is it possible that after transitioning with hormone therapy that there are some sports where the advantage of being born male and going through puberty is negated by the transition? I think this is all too new for us to know for sure whether or not it's possible to even the playing field between trans woman and woman. And if we take the time to research this I'll accept whatever conclusion they come to. If we research this in good faith and we determine that no amount of current treatments can even the playing field enough for trans women to compete in any sports then so be it. I think we definitely still need to figure out if that is possible and if it is, can it apply to all sports and if not which ones.

I mean, I'm just going off the studies I've seen. Mostly conducted by the military. There's a sizeable gap 2 years in. There are some area's in which the difference is less significant, but it's still there. 

 

Quote

 

1. Muscle Mass & Strength

• Within 3–6 months of starting estrogen + anti-androgen therapy, muscle mass and strength begin to decrease, reaching ~5% loss at 12 months; further reductions accumulate over time reddit.com+7pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+7researchgate.net+7.

• Yet, even after a year or more, average lean body mass and grip strength remain higher than in cisgender women, though lower than in cis men reddit.com+7en.wikipedia.org+7reddit.com+7.

  • Example: In a military study, after 2 years, push-up and sit-up ability aligned with cis women, but running speed remained ~12% faster en.wikipedia.org+1pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+1.

---

2. Bone Density & Structure

• MTF individuals often start with higher bone density and larger bone size compared to cis women.

• Over the first 1–2 years of GAHT, bone density is maintained or even increases slightly, especially in the spine and hip pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+15pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+15reddit.com+15pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+4pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+4journals.lww.com+4.

• However, bone microarchitecture (cortical thickness, trabecular quality) may decline modestly in some areas, though overall fracture risk doesn't necessarily increase in the short to mid term clinicalpub.com+2researchgate.net+2pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+2.

---

3. Physical Endurance & VO₂ Max

• Hemoglobin levels fall to typical female ranges within ~4 months, reducing oxygen-carrying capacity journals.lww.com+1reddit.com+1.

• Studies show VO₂ peak/kg and run times also decline:

  • One study: after ~14 years on GAHT, VO₂ peak in trans women was lower than cis men but comparable to cis women pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.goven.wikipedia.org+12reddit.com+12pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+12.

  • Another: after 2 years, 1.5-mile run time slowed ~13s, but remained ~12% faster than cis women pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+2journals.lww.com+2en.wikipedia.org+2.

---

4. Cardiovascular System

• Hormone therapy increases estrogen, which can raise risk of venous thromboembolism (DVT/PE), especially with oral estrogen in the first year en.wikipedia.org.

• Aerobic capacity drops mostly due to lower hemoglobin rather than structural heart or lung changes—lung size stays large, but oxygen delivery decreases .

---

Summary Table

Aspect	Change After GAHT	After ~1–2 Years
Muscle mass/strength	–5% at 1 yr, continues losing	Still somewhat above cis women
Bone density/structure	Maintained or slight ↑	Microarchitecture may soften
Hemoglobin/VO₂ max	Drops → female norm (~4 mo)	VO₂/kg aligns with cis women
Endurance performance	Slower run times	~10–12% faster than cis women
Cardiovascular risk	↑ risk of blood clots	Risk remains elevated with estrogen

---

Athletic Implications

• GAHT diminishes many male-biased physiological advantages, yet some remaining edge persists—especially in lean mass, strength, and running endurance—typically around 10–15% over cis women even after ~2 years verywellhealth.com+8journals.lww.com+8en.wikipedia.org+8reddit.com+3en.wikipedia.org+3reddit.com+3pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov+8researchgate.net+8researchgate.net+8clinicalpub.com.

• However, these outcomes vary—training status, genetics, hormone regimen, and body size all influence results.

---

Takeaway

Feminizing hormone therapy significantly shifts MTF physiology toward female baselines, but some structural and performance factors—muscle, bone, and cardiovascular—don’t entirely equalize. Many athletic federations use at least 12 months of GAHT, plus testosterone limits, to reduce advantages—but quantitative differences don’t disappear fully and vary per sport.

 

This is what I'm going off of. To me the biggest difference is... DSD is not a choice. Transitioning is. I don't mean to sound cruel, but life isn't always fair. 

If additional testing comes out and it says after 10 years of transitioning...there's no difference physically, then my opinion will change with additional information... which should be the default, the problem is just as you have a few posts up, someone "said '8 pages in but only one SIDE is overblowing the issue." If you're coming in with a "side" already, you're not likely to change your opinion. 

21 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

As far as DSD goes I am in agreement. I can't get behind punishing someone because they were born a certain way. In the case of the Algerian boxer she was born with DSD, she has identified as a female since birth and never transitioned. She was gifted (if you want to call it that) with a physiology that gives her an advantage over other women. It's a slippery slope. Take Michael Phelps for example.

Yes, I think it was incredibly unfair how she was treated and...there's not much more to say about that...and again, the fact that people ONLY talk about one of the two athletes tells me something. It wasn't just about DSD.

I'd say the standard there should be normal testing levels. If you're DSD and you have...say internal testes, then you need to take something to get your Testosterone down to normal levels(for elite level athletes). 

I think I'd pointed this out before, but people born DSD is 1 in 20,000. Among Olympic level athletes, it's about 1 in 100. 

So that'd be me initial take. You have to test within these limits, but I'm hardly an authority. 

[JimmyCinnabon]

15 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I mean, I'm just going off the studies I've seen. Mostly conducted by the military. There's a sizeable gap 2 years in. There are some area's in which the difference is less significant, but it's still there. 

 

This is what I'm going off of. To me the biggest difference is... DSD is not a choice. Transitioning is. I don't mean to sound cruel, but life isn't always fair. 

If additional testing comes out and it says after 10 years of transitioning...there's no difference physically, then my opinion will change with additional information... which should be the default, the problem is just as you have a few posts up, someone "said '8 pages in but only one SIDE is overblowing the issue." If you're coming in with a "side" already, you're not likely to change your opinion. 

Yes, I think it was incredibly unfair how she was treated and...there's not much more to say about that...and again, the fact that people ONLY talk about one of the two athletes tells me something. It wasn't just about DSD.

I'd say the standard there should be normal testing levels. If you're DSD and you have...say internal testes, then you need to take something to get your Testosterone down to normal levels(for elite level athletes). 

I think I'd pointed this out before, but people born DSD is 1 in 20,000. Among Olympic level athletes, it's about 1 in 100. 

So that'd be me initial take. You have to test within these limits, but I'm hardly an authority. 

These are all fair points. 

[scourge165]

16 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

this might be stupid, so don't rake me over the coals on it...just an idea...

why dont organizations just have a third division? 

the number of teens identifying as the opposite sex is going thru the roof. give them their own division.

 

I don't think that's a stupid idea at all. 

I think it's still too small of a number to have any meaningful number or worth the expense to have a 3rd division...BUT, sure. I'd be for that. 

I do tend to believe(despite studies that disprove this to be fair) there's a bit of a social contagion right now. There's always been trans people. I believe that, I believe they "have the right to exist," which what you always hear. That's all they're asking for. I'm also a big dubious that we've seen a 6 fold increase in the number of people who are truly trans in a decade, but maybe that's just because it's such a foreign concept to me.

 

But sure, what the hell. A 3rd division would make it by far the easiest and fairest. 

 

So maybe that's as equitable as we can make it. That would solve your inclusivity. You'd have all types of issues with Trans-men taking testosterone and trans-women taking HRT and whatever, but...it'd be easier. 

[Husker_Du]

if it's such a small number, then it won't require a lot of matches/heats/games/events

if it's not such a small number, then it validates the need for the third division.

just thinking out loud.

[scourge165]

4 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

if it's such a small number, then it won't require a lot of matches/heats/games/events

if it's not such a small number, then it validates the need for the third division.

just thinking out loud.

Yeah...no, I think that's a fine idea. I remember when my Cousin entered a women's Wrestling event like 20 years ago there were only about 40 in the whole state. Now, we know it's significantly more popular. 

 

[ugarles]

saw the topic and even though the first half of the page was not as toxic as i had expected, i'd rather rinse my eyes with bleach than read the entire thread.

[1032004]

3 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

this might be stupid, so don't rake me over the coals on it...just an idea...

why dont organizations just have a third division? 

the number of teens identifying as the opposite sex is going thru the roof. give them their own division.

 

I think that’s all Simone Biles was suggesting in her recent spat with Riley Gaines.

I don’t think there are enough participants for it though.  You could maybe do a Nationals for individual sports like track & field and swimming, but no way could you field full teams.

[Wrasslin]

3 hours ago, Husker_Du said:

this might be stupid, so don't rake me over the coals on it...just an idea...

why dont organizations just have a third division? 

the number of teens identifying as the opposite sex is going thru the roof. give them their own division.

 

 

3 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

I think that’s all Simone Biles was suggesting in her recent spat with Riley Gaines.

I don’t think there are enough participants for it though.  You could maybe do a Nationals for individual sports like track & field and swimming, but no way could you field full teams.

Not stupid, but I agree there are not enough athletes (yet). World Aquatics tried it by creating an "OPEN" division for the Swimming World Cup in 2023, but it was scrapped because nobody entered. 

I wasn't completely disparaged by what CA did for track this year. They let everyone compete together, gave medals to AB Hernandez (trans) where she placed, and then pretended she didn't compete at all and gave additional medals to the other girls where they placed would Hernandez not have been there. I didn't think that was totally egregious.  

[Husker_Du]

Simone's message was f'ing stupid.

another bleeding heart with no substance that wants to play shoot-the-messenger. 

she got embarrassed. 

[1032004]

2 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

Simone's message was f'ing stupid.

another bleeding heart with no substance that wants to play shoot-the-messenger. 

she got embarrassed. 

Riley Gaines called a high school kid a “predatory man,” and compared competing against a boy to sexual abuse.

[1032004]

4 minutes ago, Wrasslin said:

 

I wasn't completely disparaged by what CA did for track this year. They let everyone compete together, gave medals to AB Hernandez (trans) where she placed, and then pretended she didn't compete at all and gave additional medals to the other girls where they placed would Hernandez not have been there. I didn't think that was totally egregious.  

Wait, is this true???  So all the outrage over Hernandez from the likes of Gaines was for no reason?

[Husker_Du]

what does that have to do with Simone?

i'm talking about what Simone said.

i'm not interested in choosing sides. i'm interested in the argument's substance. 

 

[Wrasslin]

3 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

Simone's message was f'ing stupid.

another bleeding heart with no substance that wants to play shoot-the-messenger. 

she got embarrassed. 

Dude, I kinda felt bad a little for Biles' husband. You know that dude had to listen to her talk about it for like, 4 days straight. Poor guy couldn't even escape off to work 'cause you know he was getting $hit in the Chicago locker room too! 

[1032004]

2 minutes ago, Wrasslin said:

Dude, I kinda felt bad a little for Biles' husband. You know that dude had to listen to her talk about it for like, 4 days straight. Poor guy couldn't even escape off to work 'cause you know he was getting $hit in the Chicago locker room too! 

Simone’s, what about Gaines’??? She made dozens of posts about it and appeared on multiple talk shows to talk about it.  Maybe she got paid for those though, since she’s a grifter

Edited Thursday at 09:10 PM by 1032004

[1032004]

4 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

what does that have to do with Simone?

i'm talking about what Simone said.

i'm not interested in choosing sides. i'm interested in the argument's substance. 

 

Me too.  Gaines compared competing against a boy to sexual abuse.  So Biles wins by default.

[Wrasslin]

5 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Wait, is this true???  So all the outrage over Hernandez from the likes of Gaines was for no reason?

Yes, true. But I think Gaines is arguing that they shouldn't be competing against each other, period. 

[1032004]

2 minutes ago, Wrasslin said:

Yes, true. But I think Gaines is arguing that they shouldn't be competing against each other, period. 

Well that’s dumb, but I’m not surprised coming from her.

[Husker_Du]

1032004 - you're all in on the tabloid stuff and nothing of the substance.

it's mind numbing and stale.

we get it. you don't like Riley Gaines.

neat.

how bout stick to the actual topic? 

[ugarles]

1 minute ago, Husker_Du said:

1032004 - you're not very intelligent.

you're all in on the tabloid stuff and nothing of the substance.

we get it. you don't like Riley Gaines.

neat.

how bout stick to the actual topic? 

BLEACH ME

[1032004]

13 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

1032004 - you're all in on the tabloid stuff and nothing of the substance.

it's mind numbing and stale.

we get it. you don't like Riley Gaines.

neat.

how bout stick to the actual topic? 

The actual topic being the likelihood of a trans person wrestling at Worlds or Olympics, right?

I was one of the few people that actually commented on that topic…

Edited Thursday at 10:06 PM by 1032004

[Husker_Du]

all you're doing now is Gaines vs. Biles. it's theater, and we are now very aware of your stance.

move on. 

[1032004]

5 minutes ago, Husker_Du said:

all you're doing now is Gaines vs. Biles. it's theater

Kinda like Gaines’ dozens of posts on social media about it. OK you’re right, I shouldn’t stoop to her level, moving on.

 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Husker_Du said:

Simone's message was f'ing stupid.

another bleeding heart with no substance that wants to play shoot-the-messenger. 

she got embarrassed. 

No it wasn't, Gaines was the obnoxious one. She was insufferable and she's been insufferable. She threw Larry Nassar back at Biles and then for the last couple years, she's just done nothing other than say, 'a man was in the locker room and we tied and they gave Lia Thomas the 5th place trophy instead of me,' which is...what they do in every situation in which someone ties.

 

She's like a bot. She's just...the same over and over. You could just take the same interview from the last 3 years and just replay it. 

[Husker_Du]

lol. no. absolutely not.

you're getting caught up in the theater.

one is saying 'men in women's sports is wrong'

the other is saying ... idk what she's saying b/c she reneged on it all publicly.

bottom line, if you think men competing vs women is ok, you're either a moron or trying to be ok with the liberal mob.

it's nonsense. 

[Husker_Du]

Let's get back to the essence of this....

 

how many of you think Men competing against Women is fine? Lead with your chests. Cmon tough guys.