All this transgender athlete fuss lately. . .

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

You're comparing two different things. Iran and most other majority Muslim countries also have laws against being gay. Iran's president once said gay people don't exist in Iran. Obviously he's wrong, and there are gay people everywhere. Iran executed somebody who did something like what you described, by throwing them off a cliff. 

But do you think any of these countries would allow an openly gay or transgender person to compete for them in the Olympics? That would be a huge embarrassment and it wouldn't be allowed. 

https://iranhr.net/en/articles/81/

The point is: It doesn't get much more conservative than Afghanistan and they choose to ignore it.  So let's not think we understand everything coming from another culture.

Meanwhile you ignored this part:

"But: Stuff was said about Khelif before the tournament; and to say that nothing was said in the 10 years prior just demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge."

 

[scourge165]

13 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

It is easy to understand that a DSD person with obscured genitalia where only a vagina was visible would be certified as a woman at birth in Algeraia.

Agreed There was never a trans gender change. the label did not account for the internal testes or male hormone production capability. They did not test XY at birth in Algeria. she was categorized by visual inspection.

Yes the Algerians that know her have always known her as a woman. But What is true the biological requirement for competition against biological YY females? And why can't you ask what's fair?

I don't think anyone said you "can't ask what's fair." 

I think that's EXACTLY what we're talking about and may be more useful without the morons like Scout(who just happens to have the PERFECT personal anecdote from last night...while this topic was going by the way) just yelling over the conversation by calling her a man. 

I have no clue what's "fair" for people like that. I think in order to be qualified to answer that question, you'd have to have a MUCH better understanding of this topic than I have. I know it can't just be 'they're stronger.' Most great athletes are born physically superior. 

I can say if you're born male, you can't compete in the women's events. That it as far as I'm confident in commenting insofar as what I know or believe to be "fair." At least fair to the most number of people. 

I'm also incredibly skeptical that anyone on here was talking about an average Albanian fighter BEFORE the Olympics. 

[Tripnsweep]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

The point is: It doesn't get much more conservative than Afghanistan and they choose to ignore it.  So let's not think we understand everything coming from another culture.

Meanwhile you ignored this part:

"But: Stuff was said about Khelif before the tournament; and to say that nothing was said in the 10 years prior just demonstrates a complete lack of knowledge."

 

Rape and crimes against children happen in remote places or small towns even in this country and people get away with it. Does that mean it is an acceptable thing? We had child brides and sexual assault occurring in my state for decades in a remote town before anybody tried to do anything about it. 

And up until Khelif was in the last Olympics, I hadn't heard anything about her. She competed in Tokyo, and at several other events with no incident. I don't follow boxing that much, so maybe that's why. 

 

[Gene Mills Fan]

4 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I don't think anyone said you "can't ask what's fair." 

I think that's EXACTLY what we're talking about and may be more useful without the morons like Scout(who just happens to have the PERFECT personal anecdote from last night...while this topic was going by the way) just yelling over the conversation by calling her a man. 

I have no clue what's "fair" for people like that. I think in order to be qualified to answer that question, you'd have to have a MUCH better understanding of this topic than I have. I know it can't just be 'they're stronger.' Most great athletes are born physically superior. 

I can say if you're born male, you can't compete in the women's events. That it as far as I'm confident in commenting insofar as what I know or believe to be "fair." At least fair to the most number of people. 

I'm also incredibly skeptical that anyone on here was talking about an average Albanian fighter BEFORE the Olympics. 

she was banned by the IOC and their set of rules  because of the XY test at worlds a year earlier

Husker asked what a level playing field was doublehalf wrote something I could not understand

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

This is the problem...

 

what you all mean by wanting to discuss on a level playing field really is just the playing field you choose to have the discussion and anything antithetical to that is met with ad hominem attacks or taking a conversation in a completely different direction that is borderline nonsensical making it near impossible to respond to. Not to mention conservatives in this day and age are the masters of whataboutism to rationalize their arguments when they know they don't have a leg to stand on...

No, I don't see that happening on a thread like this...

 

45 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

As far as laws: Afghanistan also has laws against being gay; however that does not stop the widespread Pashtun custom of men repeatedly violating young boys; even having harems of them.

I'm sorry, what were you saying about nonsensical arguments making it impossible to respond to?

 

Lets compare the veracity of Pashtun Men abusing younger Boys and a Country that has laws against Trans people having a Trans-women Represent them on the World Stage at the Olympics?

 

And you thought this would become a topic about whataboutism to rationalize any argument!

[scourge165]

3 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

she was banned by the IOC and their set of rules  because of the XY test at worlds a year earlier

Husker asked what a level playing field was doublehalf wrote something I could not understand

No, she was not. She was NEVER banned by the IOC...at any point. 

At least that I'm aware of. But you're claiming you and others talking about this were aware of the situation before the Olympics, so if you could show me when the IOC banned her, I'd be very interested in reading that. 

[Tripnsweep]

Just now, Gene Mills Fan said:

she was banned by the IOC and their set of rules  because of the XY test at worlds a year earlier

Husker asked what a level playing field was doublehalf wrote something I could not understand

The IOC didn't ban Khelif. An alleged test by the former sanctioning body of international boxing released it, and it was coincidentally after Khelif had beaten a fighter from Russia, the same country that controlled that organization and was eventually suspended by the IOC for corruption and ties to organized crime. 

Prior to that, and even in the previous Olympics, nobody had questioned her or anything. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

4 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

No, I don't see that happening on a thread like this...

 

I'm sorry, what were you saying about nonsensical arguments making it impossible to respond to?

 

Lets compare the veracity of Pashtun Men abusing younger Boys and a Country that has laws against Trans people having a Trans-women Represent them on the World Stage at the Olympics?

 

And you thought this would become a topic about whataboutism to rationalize any argument!

I wasn't talking to you.

And... my point is understanding other cultures and what is permissible isn't always easy, nor is it ever always going to make sense to us.  Sorry to go so far over your head.

[Gene Mills Fan]

13 minutes ago, Tripnsweep said:

The IOC didn't ban Khelif. An alleged test by the former sanctioning body of international boxing released it, and it was coincidentally after Khelif had beaten a fighter from Russia, the same country that controlled that organization and was eventually suspended by the IOC for corruption and ties to organized crime. 

Prior to that, and even in the previous Olympics, nobody had questioned her or anything. 

Aplologys to Trip and scourge

i am wrong I had the wrong Initials:

The International Boxing Association (IBA) disqualified Imane Khelif from the 2023 World Championships after tests indicated the presence of male chromosomes, according to the BBC and ESPN. To be deemed eligible for future competitions, Khelif will need to undergo mandatory sex screening, according to CNN and the Guardian. This screening will involve a PCR test to determine her sex at birth and hormonal profiles or anatomical examination, according to CNN. 

Edited Thursday at 03:02 PM by Gene Mills Fan

[JimmyCinnabon]

38 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

It is easy to understand that a DSD person with obscured genitalia where only a vagina was visible would be certified as a woman at birth in Algeria.

Agreed There was never a trans gender change. the label did not account for the internal testes or male hormone production capability. They did not test XY at birth in Algeria. she was categorized by visual inspection.

Yes the Algerians that know her have always known her as a woman. But What is true the biological requirement for competition against biological YY females? And why can't you ask what's fair?

You bring up fair points. The reality is that this is a far more complex situation than most people want to admit. It's not just, "pull down your pants" and we are all good. It's a nuanced topic and certainly not the widespread epidemic that some make it out to be. 

Of course, like I have already pointed out, the right has completely moved the goalposts on this one. They went from trying to pass bills that would require genital inspections as the end all be all of this issue until they realized it's not that simple and have pivoted to a new approach. Now anyone who is too masculine is just trans to these people.

This topic needs much more research to figure out exactly how this effects athletes. We may find out that it's fair in some sports to allow trans women to participate once their hormone levels meet a specific criteria and we may learn that there are some sports where someone who was born male (by the traditional definition) will simply always have an unfair advantage that hormone therapy won't alleviate. Only when we have enough data on this can we really determine how to move forward.  

[Tripnsweep]

3 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I wasn't talking to you.

And... my point is understanding other cultures and what is permissible isn't always easy, nor is it ever always going to make sense to us.  Sorry to go so far over your head.

You're comparing something that happens in remote parts of a country without a strong central government and a long history of not having control of the outlying areas to somebody openly breaking the law in full view of the government. 

[scourge165]

7 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I wasn't talking to you.

And... my point is understanding other cultures and what is permissible isn't always easy, nor is it ever always going to make sense to us.  Sorry to go so far over your head.

Yeah, it's not that hard to understand other cultures. 

They rape little boys there when there aren't women around or...just as a form of humiliation. American Slave owners used to do that in the United States. They'd take the biggest slave, tie him up and rape him in front of everyone else...just to take that fight out of him. Yet...somehow they weren't viewed as homosexuals.

 

Maybe you could make an ATTEMPT to understand those cultures. The lack of a prosecution and ignoring is a BIG different than taking a person who you KNOW is part of the LGBT community and putting them on the WORLD STAGE so as they can represent you're Nation. 

Do ya think Afghanistan would do that with a gay man? 

 

Maybe lets not conflate only SOMETIMES  putting the people we're talking about to DEATH with making a point to elevate them to the World Stage while they wear your Countries Flag.

 

Sorry if that went over your head. 

[scourge165]

9 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

Aplologys to Trip and sourge

i am wrong I had the wrong Initials:

The International Boxing Association (IBA) disqualified Imane Khelif from the 2023 World Championships after tests indicated the presence of male chromosomes, according to the BBC and ESPN. To be deemed eligible for future competitions, Khelif will need to undergo mandatory sex screening, according to CNN and the Guardian. This screening will involve a PCR test to determine her sex at birth and hormonal profiles or anatomical examination, according to CNN. 

Yes, and...if you know about the IBA, you know the IOC cut ties with them due to their corruption well before that;

•  

  Quote

   

  • The IOC had already suspended formal ties to the IBA in 2019 due to corruption and governance concerns, and fully removed its recognition in 2023. Thus, IBA decisions no longer carried any weight for Olympic eligibility indianexpress.com+12en.wikipedia.org+12en.wikipedia.org+12.

  • During Paris 2024, the IOC’s internal Boxing Unit managed the sport and explicitly dismissed the IBA’s disqualification as flawed reddit.com+8en.wikipedia.org+8thetimes.co.uk+8.

   

   

The IBA was a corrupt, Russian based..."Agency" by this point that had committed extortion, gambling, fixing fights and ties to organized crime(so said the United States Treasury in 2019).   

I BELIEVE all they did was test the fights testosterone levels and then extrapolate from there.

[Gene Mills Fan]

11 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Yes, and...if you know about the IBA, you know the IOC cut ties with them due to their corruption well before that;

•  

   

The IBA was a corrupt, Russian based..."Agency" by this point that had committed extortion, gambling, fixing fights and ties to organized crime(so said the United States Treasury in 2019).   

I BELIEVE all they did was test the fights testosterone levels and then extrapolate from there.

No one knows for certain anything in this but people were talking about her before she won gold at the Olympics

Edited Thursday at 03:20 PM by Gene Mills Fan

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 pages in, but only one side is overblowing the issue...

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

No one knows for certain anything in this but people were talking about her before she won gold at the Olmpics

Not according to Trip

[Gene Mills Fan]

The International Boxing Association (IBA) stated that their tests showed Imane Khelif had XY chromosomes.

I think even corrupt Russians would not put out the XY results, where they would be liable in international court, if not true.

[scourge165]

20 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

You bring up fair points. The reality is that this is a far more complex situation than most people want to admit. It's not just, "pull down your pants" and we are all good. It's a nuanced topic and certainly not the widespread epidemic that some make it out to be. 

Of course, like I have already pointed out, the right has completely moved the goalposts on this one. They went from trying to pass bills that would require genital inspections as the end all be all of this issue until they realized it's not that simple and have pivoted to a new approach. Now anyone who is too masculine is just trans to these people.

This topic needs much more research to figure out exactly how this effects athletes. We may find out that it's fair in some sports to allow trans women to participate once their hormone levels meet a specific criteria and we may learn that there are some sports where someone who was born male (by the traditional definition) will simply always have an unfair advantage that hormone therapy won't alleviate. Only when we have enough data on this can we really determine how to move forward.  

1-I agree, it's... VERY confusing to me. I would hate to be the person to make the decision about a Caster Semenya or the handful of athletes who...present as women, are raised as women and then they have this little biological abnormality and they're treated...just brutally. 

2-The laws that were being talked about, namely the one in on Ohio is...so over the top and easily abused, I can't believe it was passed by the Ohio State Congress(of course the last minute, attached to another bill). 

 

3-I do feel differently on the topic of trans athletes. We already  have the science in on that. It's not the same. Transitioning to become a different sex, that's going to come with I guess some positives for the person and some negatives and the negative is just going to have to be that trans-women...do not get to compete in High School or College(I'd add pro athletics, but at that point, I guess let the league decide). But we know the bone density, the muscle mass...that's where I differ. 

DSD is different, it's nuanced and I don't pretend to have the information to make an informed declaration of what is fair and what isn't... but I THINK I do when it comes to a trans-women. 

 

Lia Thomas wouldn't be able to compete with women now. I think that's the right decision. If you're a great athlete and you're just competing because you love the sport... do it in Men's swimming. That's an area where I don't prioritize the feelings of the few over what I think is fair for everyone. It sucks, but I think it sucks more for the women who would have been a National Champion or All American if not for Thomas, who was a mediocre Male Swimmer two years(not even). 

I also don't think it's fair to the teams in Minnesota. Any baseball fan knows how important starting pitching is. You have an ace, you are in every game. 

Imagine being able to pitch Randy Johnson 5 straight games in Gm7 of the NLCS and then the next 4 games of the World Series?

That's what happened in Minnesota. A Trans pitcher was just able to pitch 5 straight games. 

She put up an INCREDIBLE line of 35 innings pitched, just 1 earned run, stellar ERA (~0.20), 27 strikeouts

 

That's where I just don't think it's a...pretty easy line to cut off.

I don't know if people remember John McEnroe talking about Serena Williams being the greatest WOMEN'S Tennis player of all-time and people complaining he had to qualify it. Well...Williams herself said she'd lose 6-0, 6-0 in two sets in about 10 minutes to Andy Roderick. We are built differently and I don't think you can off-set that. I also get how people will say there are always people who are built differently. 

 

So that's where I'd make the cut...were it up to me...and then allow for science of sports to determine how to address people born with DSD. 

[JimmyCinnabon]

4 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

1-I agree, it's... VERY confusing to me. I would hate to be the person to make the decision about a Caster Semenya or the handful of athletes who...present as women, are raised as women and then they have this little biological abnormality and they're treated...just brutally. 

2-The laws that were being talked about, namely the one in on Ohio is...so over the top and easily abused, I can't believe it was passed by the Ohio State Congress(of course the last minute, attached to another bill). 

 

3-I do feel differently on the topic of trans athletes. We already  have the science in on that. It's not the same. Transitioning to become a different sex, that's going to come with I guess some positives for the person and some negatives and the negative is just going to have to be that trans-women...do not get to compete in High School or College(I'd add pro athletics, but at that point, I guess let the league decide). But we know the bone density, the muscle mass...that's where I differ. 

DSD is different, it's nuanced and I don't pretend to have the information to make an informed declaration of what is fair and what isn't... but I THINK I do when it comes to a trans-women. 

 

Lia Thomas wouldn't be able to compete with women now. I think that's the right decision. If you're a great athlete and you're just competing because you love the sport... do it in Men's swimming. That's an area where I don't prioritize the feelings of the few over what I think is fair for everyone. It sucks, but I think it sucks more for the women who would have been a National Champion or All American if not for Thomas, who was a mediocre Male Swimmer two years(not even). 

I also don't think it's fair to the teams in Minnesota. Any baseball fan knows how important starting pitching is. You have an ace, you are in every game. 

Imagine being able to pitch Randy Johnson 5 straight games in Gm7 of the NLCS and then the next 4 games of the World Series?

That's what happened in Minnesota. A Trans pitcher was just able to pitch 5 straight games. 

She put up an INCREDIBLE line of 35 innings pitched, just 1 earned run, stellar ERA (~0.20), 27 strikeouts

 

That's where I just don't think it's a...pretty easy line to cut off.

I don't know if people remember John McEnroe talking about Serena Williams being the greatest WOMEN'S Tennis player of all-time and people complaining he had to qualify it. Well...Williams herself said she'd lose 6-0, 6-0 in two sets in about 10 minutes to Andy Roderick. We are built differently and I don't think you can off-set that. I also get how people will say there are always people who are built differently. 

 

So that's where I'd make the cut...were it up to me...and then allow for science of sports to determine how to address people born with DSD. 

I am not sure why, without the actual research into this, you can say with any conviction where the line should be. I don't think we know at this point where the line should be, but we should certainly put in the time and research to find out. Because again, I think there are too many variables to consider such as the specific sport, the hormone levels of someone who has transitioned, and any other measurable that may apply that could be different in each individual who transitions.

I am probably Ok with pulling back a bit and putting in some guardrails while we figure it out, though with the caveat that the guardrails make sense for everyone. 

[scourge165]

59 minutes ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

No one knows for certain anything in this but people were talking about her before she won gold at the Olympics

Sure. People started talking about it when the Italian Fight quit in the first Rd of the Olympic.

That's when people started talking about it. 

Unless you mean literally anyone in which case...I'm sure some people were. I would bet money nobody on this forum brought either her nor the other boxer with DSD up prior to these Olympics... and I'd bet nobody recalls the other boxers name...which is why I'm skeptical of the "people were saying," claim from before the Olympics.

And to be clear, in American nomenclature, I take "people were talking about," to mean...it was a widespread controversy in this case or just point of discussion in other cases. 

"People were talking about Spencer Lee's knee before the NCAAs." Lots of people were aware and talking about that issue. 

I don't believe a lot of people were talking about two boxers who hadn't won a World and hadn't medaled in the Olympics prior to this past Olympics. And the reason I believe that...we're STILL only talking about the one of them. The one who lost her first match at the World Championships her first time there. The one who is SO overpowering that the Italian had to quit immediately...but in ~50 career bouts she had 6 KOs?

I'm...a bit skeptical of that claim. 

[scourge165]

10 minutes ago, JimmyCinnabon said:

I am not sure why, without the actual research into this, you can say with any conviction where the line should be. I don't think we know at this point where the line should be, but we should certainly put in the time and research to find out. Because again, I think there are too many variables to consider such as the specific sport, the hormone levels of someone who has transitioned, and any other measurable that may apply that could be different in each individual who transitions.

I am probably Ok with pulling back a bit and putting in some guardrails while we figure it out, though with the caveat that the guardrails make sense for everyone. 

But we do have a LOT of research into this. 

We know how when you're born biologically male and you go through puberty and you transition, you have greater bone density, more muscle mass, you have a stronger cardiovascular system, lungs meaning more endurance, speed. 

 

The difference between Men and Women is...pretty well documented, even after years of HRT. 

 

DSD...I am too ignorant to speak on with any authority. I see it as being inherently unfair to just ban women for being born with DSD and insofar as I'm aware, Imane Khelif tested inside normal parameters for women in the latest Olympics...as did Yu-Ting(who....oddly hasn't been brought up, but she won a Gold as well). 

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, Gene Mills Fan said:

The International Boxing Association (IBA) stated that their tests showed Imane Khelif had XY chromosomes.

I think even corrupt Russians would not put out the XY results, where they would be liable in international court, if not true.

They're literal gangster's involved. They've bribed people, fixed fights...they're corrupt as hell. You think they care about being held "liable" in international court?

And they could have just released the testing results. 

I don't care about the IBA. And again, I find it confusing that with all this prior knowledge of Khelif, we ONLY talked about her, the boxer who comes from the Country it's literally illegal to be transgender. 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Scourge and Trip are absolutely obsessed with a "nonissue."

[JimmyCinnabon]

34 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

But we do have a LOT of research into this. 

We know how when you're born biologically male and you go through puberty and you transition, you have greater bone density, more muscle mass, you have a stronger cardiovascular system, lungs meaning more endurance, speed. 

 

The difference between Men and Women is...pretty well documented, even after years of HRT. 

 

DSD...I am too ignorant to speak on with any authority. I see it as being inherently unfair to just ban women for being born with DSD and insofar as I'm aware, Imane Khelif tested inside normal parameters for women in the latest Olympics...as did Yu-Ting(who....oddly hasn't been brought up, but she won a Gold as well). 

We are going to disagree on what we know. I understand that we know the differences in men and woman after puberty. What I think we need more information on his what happens when someone transitions and goes through hormone treatment. How much does it effect bone density etc? Is it possible that after transitioning with hormone therapy that there are some sports where the advantage of being born male and going through puberty is negated by the transition? I think this is all too new for us to know for sure whether or not it's possible to even the playing field between trans woman and woman. And if we take the time to research this I'll accept whatever conclusion they come to. If we research this in good faith and we determine that no amount of current treatments can even the playing field enough for trans women to compete in any sports then so be it. I think we definitely still need to figure out if that is possible and if it is, can it apply to all sports and if not which ones.

 

As far as DSD goes I am in agreement. I can't get behind punishing someone because they were born a certain way. In the case of the Algerian boxer she was born with DSD, she has identified as a female since birth and never transitioned. She was gifted (if you want to call it that) with a physiology that gives her an advantage over other women. It's a slippery slope. Take Michael Phelps for example.

Michael Phelps is considered an exceptional swimmer due to a combination of factors, including his unique physical attributes, intense training, and mental fortitude. He possesses an anatomy that is well-suited for swimming, including a long torso, short legs, double-jointed ankles and elbows, and a high lung capacity. These physical advantages, coupled with his dedication, discipline, and mental toughness, allowed him to achieve unparalleled success in swimming. 

Where is the line? Because Michael Phelps was born with physiology that makes him far superior to other swimmers are we going to ban him from swimming? Of course we wouldn't even think of banning Michael Phelps because he has physical attributes that are more fish like than everyone else.

 

[Husker_Du]

this might be stupid, so don't rake me over the coals on it...just an idea...

why dont organizations just have a third division? 

the number of teens identifying as the opposite sex is going thru the roof. give them their own division.