DeSanto dec Garrett 14-13

[scourge165]

5 hours ago, LJB said:

"women's wrestling" is a nod to our scandinavian brothers who have absolutely no patience for men wrestling freestyle...

it is used tounge'n'cheek as a means of profiling...

anyone who gets salty after hearing/reading have just outed themselves and should be placed in the pile to the left...

 

and the pure fact that greco is just more masculine...

but...

i get most will never be gifted the ability to understand...

it no longer irks me in any way or fashion...

i am pretty proud of my own personal growth in that regard...

you are all very welcome!!!!

LOL...again, you come to this opinion because of the sports origins(so you've said). 

They originally oiled themselves up...and Wrestled Naked. So...maybe stop with the "it's more masculine" talking point as it's kinda at odds with your entire rationale for why it's the superior style.

 

As for those being "gifted the ability to understand," I understand just fine. I had more success in Greco than any other style(though HS) because...it was easier. I took 3rd at World Team Trials in HS in Greco, I was an AA in Fargo. I understand what Greco is. 

So please spare me the "we just don't get it," nonsense. I get it. I was better at because...for one, generally, the BEST Wrestlers generally just wrestled just Freestyle. For a second...it's better for guys who are physical and good at hand-fighting, but it takes more explosive ability to Wrestle Freestyle...and frankly more skill, flexibility, athleticism. 

 

Just advocating for your favorite style would be one thing, but it's comical to disparage the other styles...and you've never stepped foot on a mat in ANY of the styles. That's the part that's really funny. Not just advocating for Greco, doing so at the expense of Freestyle and Folkstyle. Especially since if those two went away...so too would Greco. 

So I guess I've "outed myself." Not sure what I'm "outing," but...I'm fine being placed in the "pile to the left," of people who don't think Freestyle is "Women's Wrestling," or you're more of a Man if you Wrestle Freestyle. 

 

I'd also ask if Greco is so superior and so much tougher and they're so much more masculine...why can't Greco guys have more success at the College level? You have elite Wrestlers who can't cut it in College, but end up in the Olympics in Greco(usually guys who come out of HS with incredible credentials)? For instance, you'd think a guy who makes the Olympics in High School at Greco(the most masculine sport) would be pretty dominant in College, no?

[El Luchador]

1 hour ago, scourge165 said:

LOL...again, you come to this opinion because of the sports origins(so you've said). 

They originally oiled themselves up...and Wrestled Naked. So...maybe stop with the "it's more masculine" talking point as it's kinda at odds with your entire rationale for why it's the superior style.

 

As for those being "gifted the ability to understand," I understand just fine. I had more success in Greco than any other style(though HS) because...it was easier. I took 3rd at World Team Trials in HS in Greco, I was an AA in Fargo. I understand what Greco is. 

So please spare me the "we just don't get it," nonsense. I get it. I was better at because...for one, generally, the BEST Wrestlers generally just wrestled just Freestyle. For a second...it's better for guys who are physical and good at hand-fighting, but it takes more explosive ability to Wrestle Freestyle...and frankly more skill, flexibility, athleticism. 

 

Just advocating for your favorite style would be one thing, but it's comical to disparage the other styles...and you've never stepped foot on a mat in ANY of the styles. That's the part that's really funny. Not just advocating for Greco, doing so at the expense of Freestyle and Folkstyle. Especially since if those two went away...so too would Greco. 

So I guess I've "outed myself." Not sure what I'm "outing," but...I'm fine being placed in the "pile to the left," of people who don't think Freestyle is "Women's Wrestling," or you're more of a Man if you Wrestle Freestyle. 

 

I'd also ask if Greco is so superior and so much tougher and they're so much more masculine...why can't Greco guys have more success at the College level? You have elite Wrestlers who can't cut it in College, but end up in the Olympics in Greco(usually guys who come out of HS with incredible credentials)? For instance, you'd think a guy who makes the Olympics in High School at Greco(the most masculine sport) would be pretty dominant in College, no?

The kid who made the team just out of high school looked very promising in the few college matches he had. Unfortunately the brutal style of greco left him a bit to damaged.  Travis Rutt was a good example. He was a solid collegiate wrestler with a greco focus, but again the style took a toll on him. Ryan Mango wasn't exactly a poor college wrestler. I could go on but why.

[scourge165]

2 hours ago, El Luchador said:

The kid who made the team just out of high school looked very promising in the few college matches he had. Unfortunately the brutal style of greco left him a bit to damaged.  Travis Rutt was a good example. He was a solid collegiate wrestler with a greco focus, but again the style took a toll on him. Ryan Mango wasn't exactly a poor college wrestler. I could go on but why.

Kinda feels like you're making my point for me. 

Rutt was a 1 time AA I believe(could be mistaken). I know his career ended in the NCAAs from an injury default in that delicate sport we call Folkstyle Wrestling. 

Deitchler wrestled a couple years and never got past open season. Certainly didn't dominate College athletics despite being an Olympic Wrestler.

Mango was a very good College Wrestler. Again...not quite what you expect from the best in the United States as the superior style of Wrestling.

You'd think given how much more masculine and just how much tougher they are, THEY'D be the ones dominating. Not those guys who wrestle the Women's sport like Kyle Snyder, Jordan Burroughs, Kyle Dake, David Taylor...

I could go on...but why?

[El Luchador]

23 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Kinda feels like you're making my point for me. 

Rutt was a 1 time AA I believe(could be mistaken). I know his career ended in the NCAAs from an injury default in that delicate sport we call Folkstyle Wrestling. 

Deitchler wrestled a couple years and never got past open season. Certainly didn't dominate College athletics despite being an Olympic Wrestler.

Mango was a very good College Wrestler. Again...not quite what you expect from the best in the United States as the superior style of Wrestling.

You'd think given how much more masculine and just how much tougher they are, THEY'D be the ones dominating. Not those guys who wrestle the Women's sport like Kyle Snyder, Jordan Burroughs, Kyle Dake, David Taylor...

I could go on...but why?

So why don't those superior wrestlers wind down their careers with an easy run in greco. Rutt was plague by concussion,  that ended his career.  Jake vs Dake is a match you should watch before you dismiss his folk skills. If I remember right  Smith won international freestyle tournaments before he won an NCAA title. You will also notice MMA has shown greco to be the most effective style. 

[scourge165]

4 minutes ago, El Luchador said:

So why don't those superior wrestlers wind down their careers with an easy run in greco. Rutt was plague by concussion,  that ended his career.  Jake vs Dake is a match you should watch before you dismiss his folk skills. If I remember right  Smith won international freestyle tournaments before he won an NCAA title. You will also notice MMA has shown greco to be the most effective style. 

Rutt wrestled 4 full years and got a concussion in his final match at the NCAAs on the backside of the bracket. Pretending like he had a Austin Gomez type career(had he not come back) is disingenuous. 

I don't understand how pointing out that John Smith(or Kyle Snyder who I mentioned) who won in both Freestyle AND Internationally while in College supports the argument that Greco is the superior or more "masculine" style of Wrestling...

 

And why don't Wrestlers "wind down their careers with an easy run in Greco?" I don't even know how to answer such a stupid question. Why don't Professional Baseball players "wind down" their careers playing Softball? Or again, like I said, why don't they dominate at Folkstyle if Greco is so superior and so much tougher and they're so much more masculine?
 

But really, and this is the important point, who said Greco was EASY? It's still Wrestling. I said it was EASIER. See that distinction? 

Benching 300 pounds is EASIER than 400 pounds, right? Does that mean 300 is easy, right? I know this can get complicated at times, but...work with me. I believe you'll get there bud!

[El Luchador]

5 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Rutt wrestled 4 full years and got a concussion in his final match at the NCAAs on the backside of the bracket. Pretending like he had a Austin Gomez type career(had he not come back) is disingenuous. 

I don't understand how pointing out that John Smith(or Kyle Snyder who I mentioned) who won in both Freestyle AND Internationally while in College supports the argument that Greco is the superior or more "masculine" style of Wrestling...

 

And why don't Wrestlers "wind down their careers with an easy run in Greco?" I don't even know how to answer such a stupid question. Why don't Professional Baseball players "wind down" their careers playing Softball? Or again, like I said, why don't they dominate at Folkstyle if Greco is so superior and so much tougher and they're so much more masculine?
 

But really, and this is the important point, who said Greco was EASY? It's still Wrestling. I said it was EASIER. See that distinction? 

Benching 300 pounds is EASIER than 400 pounds, right? Does that mean 300 is easy, right? I know this can get complicated at times, but...work with me. I believe you'll get there bud!

Rutt was plagued with concussion,  he very much was a top guy. In his match against Heflin he knocked himself out throwing him. Also do you remember how Dake did in his match against the Armenian in Greco. You'd think the superior wrestler could have scrounged up 1 point. Every argument you have as to why greco is the easiest of the 3 styles can be used to show why FS is is easier. I have a friend who TF the world Silver medalist in FS and was 4th in the world in Greco the next year. Your assertion that greco is all the lower tier wrestlers is just false.

[scourge165]

1 hour ago, El Luchador said:

Rutt was plagued with concussion,  he very much was a top guy. In his match against Heflin he knocked himself out throwing him. Also do you remember how Dake did in his match against the Armenian in Greco. You'd think the superior wrestler could have scrounged up 1 point. Every argument you have as to why greco is the easiest of the 3 styles can be used to show why FS is is easier. I have a friend who TF the world Silver medalist in FS and was 4th in the world in Greco the next year. Your assertion that greco is all the lower tier wrestlers is just false.

I don't remember Rutt getting "knocked out" vs Heflin and I don't get why this is SO important. So what? You say this like it somehow makes any relevant point since you brought up Rutt, the 1X AA who wrestled...nearly 40 matches his last year at Wisconsin and ~140 in College. But his career was plagued by concussions? Ok. AND?

I didn't shit on Greco until someone started talking about how masculine it was and how superior it was to the "women's style." As I said...I had the most success in Greco. It's just a silly argument and coming back with basically, "nuh-uh," doesn't really sway me. 

I'd think if it was SO much more difficult, you'd find more guys who focus on Greco in the off-season...ya know, winning National Titles rather than citing a guy who took a 7th in...what, 2012? And then claiming this guy who wrestled more matches a year than anyone is now had a career "plague" by Concussions? 

 

Your assertion that my assertion is false is just false.

[LJB]

I thought about reading all that…

 

then did not…

[El Luchador]

10 hours ago, scourge165 said:

I don't remember Rutt getting "knocked out" vs Heflin and I don't get why this is SO important. So what? You say this like it somehow makes any relevant point since you brought up Rutt, the 1X AA who wrestled...nearly 40 matches his last year at Wisconsin and ~140 in College. But his career was plagued by concussions? Ok. AND?

I didn't shit on Greco until someone started talking about how masculine it was and how superior it was to the "women's style." As I said...I had the most success in Greco. It's just a silly argument and coming back with basically, "nuh-uh," doesn't really sway me. 

I'd think if it was SO much more difficult, you'd find more guys who focus on Greco in the off-season...ya know, winning National Titles rather than citing a guy who took a 7th in...what, 2012? And then claiming this guy who wrestled more matches a year than anyone is now had a career "plague" by Concussions? 

 

Your assertion that my assertion is false is just false.

Your ability to link 3/10, ability to twist data 9/10.

My point with Rutt is that he was a greco guy and he was competitive with the top guys If not for injuries. Deitchler you dismissed as being inferior as a college wrestler,  base on success.  I maintain he was a legitimate top dog based on his actual matches. His match against Dake was amazing. 

I also note that the style itself is brutal which I think goes hand in hand with it being a style that requires a significant amount of toughness not always required in the other styles.  I also noted the greater success of Greco in the UFC as a counter to you linking it to Folkstyle and what you perceive as it's lack of success. Probably the biggest reason the  Greco style isn't more successful in Folkstyle is because refs allow guys to block and back up when they give up dominant ties against a  greco guys. 

[LJB]

well...

it is monday morning and i am on the clock...

so...

i perused...

i giggled several times...

two things...

using fargo as the basis for any opinion on greco is adorable...

and...

for my guy...

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

3 hours ago, El Luchador said:

Your ability to link 3/10, ability to twist data 9/10.

My point with Rutt is that he was a greco guy and he was competitive with the top guys If not for injuries. Deitchler you dismissed as being inferior as a college wrestler,  base on success.  I maintain he was a legitimate top dog based on his actual matches. His match against Dake was amazing. 

I also note that the style itself is brutal which I think goes hand in hand with it being a style that requires a significant amount of toughness not always required in the other styles.  I also noted the greater success of Greco in the UFC as a counter to you linking it to Folkstyle and what you perceive as it's lack of success. Probably the biggest reason the  Greco style isn't more successful in Folkstyle is because refs allow guys to block and back up when they give up dominant ties against a  greco guys. 

I like Greco.

I wouldn't say that it is the most successful style in MMA.

[LJB]

32 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I like Greco.

I wouldn't say that it is the most successful style in MMA.

an argument could very easily be made...

but...

the level of wrestling/grappling in MMA is so awful as a whole that i am not sure anyone could really make a valid comparison nowadays...

regardless, greco mentality is considerably more effective in those types of competitions than the less **insert the adjective that wont make some of us all red and raw**  forms of wrestling...

 

clearly, it would be hard to argue against combat sambo for the last few years and rightfully so...

 

Edited February 13, 2023 by LJB

[El Luchador]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I like Greco.

I wouldn't say that it is the most successful style in MMA.

When the first group of wrestlers entered MMA you had guys like Royce Alger, Kevin Jackson,  Chiapparelli,  all successful on the mat in FS but not in the ring. Then you had Lindland, Couture,  Henderson, Chael, who all had long term success.  I view this from the perspective of the Era where MMA still hadn't developed into it's own sport and primarily was a contest of styles. 

[mspart]

1 hour ago, El Luchador said:

When the first group of wrestlers entered MMA you had guys like Royce Alger, Kevin Jackson,  Chiapparelli,  all successful on the mat in FS but not in the ring. Then you had Lindland, Couture,  Henderson, Chael, who all had long term success.  I view this from the perspective of the Era where MMA still hadn't developed into it's own sport and primarily was a contest of styles. 

Interesting.   The GR guys were successful.  But then so was Schultz for one match, and Cejudo was quite accomplished as was Rosholt, Cormier, Woodley, Lesnar, and Askren (in MMA not UFC).   MMA, you have to get to the legs to take down.   I don't see where GR technique in TD is used at all.   There could be some throws but usually legs are involved, but not near as often as striking or full on takedown. 

Just my two cents.

mspart

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, El Luchador said:

When the first group of wrestlers entered MMA you had guys like Royce Alger, Kevin Jackson,  Chiapparelli,  all successful on the mat in FS but not in the ring. Then you had Lindland, Couture,  Henderson, Chael, who all had long term success.  I view this from the perspective of the Era where MMA still hadn't developed into it's own sport and primarily was a contest of styles. 

Gee... that was a LONG time ago in a quickly developing sport.  You know what else?  All those guys were also NCAA wrestlers.  Could there be something there?  Chael and Couture sure shot a lot of doubles! Might be an NCAA thing?  Also interesting: Couture multiple losses to NCAA wrestlers Lesnar and Lidell.  Sonnen with losses to NCAA wrestlers Evans and  Ortiz.

Mark Madsen's UFC career looks to be derailed.  The Olympic Greco medalist was just choked out by American high school wrestler Grant Dawson.

I think wrestling is a great base, but all of the mentioned Americans who have had success are guys who wrestled high school and college.  They have great ability to hold people down, for one thing.

BTW Kevin Jackson was a champ in the #2 American organization at the time.  Alger and Jackson both won the wrestling portion of the fight,; both were arm barred. (Inoue, who beat Alger,  actually submitted Couture with an armbar too- Greco couldn't save him)

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

48 minutes ago, mspart said:

Interesting.   The GR guys were successful.  But then so was Schultz for one match, and Cejudo was quite accomplished as was Rosholt, Cormier, Woodley, Lesnar, and Askren (in MMA not UFC).   MMA, you have to get to the legs to take down.   I don't see where GR technique in TD is used at all.   There could be some throws but usually legs are involved, but not near as often as striking or full on takedown. 

Just my two cents.

mspart

Clinch work.  That is about it.  Most of the mentioned Greco guys were attacking legs.  All wrestled high school and collegiate, too.

[LJB]

39 minutes ago, mspart said:

Interesting.   The GR guys were successful.  But then so was Schultz for one match, and Cejudo was quite accomplished as was Rosholt, Cormier, Woodley, Lesnar, and Askren (in MMA not UFC).   MMA, you have to get to the legs to take down.   I don't see where GR technique in TD is used at all.   There could be some throws but usually legs are involved, but not near as often as striking or full on takedown. 

Just my two cents.

mspart

clinch up against the fence...

dirty boxing...

greco doesn't need legs to get a TD against actual greco guys much less MMA guys...

i have not watched any of his fights (this weekend was the first UFC card i have watched in years), but, mark madsen is the one legitimate greco guy i am aware of that has made a serious attempt at MMA in a minute... quick looksee on the googlewebs tells me he is 12-1 and only lost his last fight in the UFC and his opponent failed to make weight for that bout...

the youngest is being introduced by his coaches to MMA... they want him to beat up a few bums after he gets done chasing medals... i am not mad at the idea... anything to keep him from having to sit in front of monitors all day long...

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, LJB said:

 

i have not watched any of his fights (this weekend was the first UFC card i have watched in years), but, mark madsen is the one legitimate greco guy i am aware of that has made a serious attempt at MMA in a minute... quick looksee on the googlewebs tells me he is 12-1 and only lost his last fight in the UFC and his opponent failed to make weight for that bout...

 

 

Choked out by an American high school wrestler from Wisconsin, who was a replacement for the original opponent.

Edited February 13, 2023 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[LJB]

Just now, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Choked out by an American high school wrestler from Wisconsin.

who missed weight...

look at the percentage of catch weight fights where the fighter who missed weight wins...

but...

like mi said, i have not bothered to watch any of madsens fights...

but no one gets out of MMA undefeated...

(i know khabib did, but, the exception proves the rule)

[LJB]

another quick googlewebs search tells me dawson did wrestle in high school... is a BJJ black belt... and is 28 years old... been fighting since 2014... has a 19-1 record... 

so...

calling him an "american high school wrestler" is a stretch at best...

Edited February 13, 2023 by LJB

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

43 minutes ago, LJB said:

another quick googlewebs search tells me dawson did wrestle in high school... is a BJJ black belt... and is 28 years old... been fighting since 2014... has a 19-1 record... 

so...

calling him an "american high school wrestler" is a stretch at best...

That's his base.

Just like Madsen's base is Greco.

And TBH Couture, Lindland, Sonnen have a base in scholastic wrestling.  

Everyone trains all the disciplines.

I see a lot of guys who miss weight and lose, because they weren't working hard during camp.  Paulo Cost who was about 40 lbs over when he entered the ring for the Vettori fight is an example.

Dawson was a replacement, might be why he missed.

[LJB]

2 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

That's his base.

Just like Madsen's base is Greco.

And TBH Couture, Lindland, Sonnen have a base in scholastic wrestling.  

Everyone trains all the disciplines.

I see a lot of guys who miss weight and lose, because they weren't working hard during camp.  Paulo Cost who was about 40 lbs over when he entered the ring for the Vettori fight is an example.

Dawson was a replacement, might be why he missed.

i don't disagree with any of this...

i just would not necessarily define dawson as an american wrestler just because he dabbled in high school... 

again...

have not seen the fight in question and probably won't ever...

 

the boy and i were pretty horrified at the level of wrestling/grappling this weekend...

just one night of australian fights so i get it is not 100% representative, but, it was awful overall from early prelims up until islam v volk...

 

[scourge165]

10 hours ago, El Luchador said:

Your ability to link 3/10, ability to twist data 9/10.

My point with Rutt is that he was a greco guy and he was competitive with the top guys If not for injuries. Deitchler you dismissed as being inferior as a college wrestler,  base on success.  I maintain he was a legitimate top dog based on his actual matches. His match against Dake was amazing. 

I also note that the style itself is brutal which I think goes hand in hand with it being a style that requires a significant amount of toughness not always required in the other styles.  I also noted the greater success of Greco in the UFC as a counter to you linking it to Folkstyle and what you perceive as it's lack of success. Probably the biggest reason the  Greco style isn't more successful in Folkstyle is because refs allow guys to block and back up when they give up dominant ties against a  greco guys. 

I'm not shitting on Greco. I think all Wrestling, especially at the highest levels if incredible. I just think one is less incredible...and I'd have kept that to myself if not for just obnoxious bloviating by someone...again, I hate to hammer this point, but who NEVER Wrestled! LOL...the nerve to talk shit about how superior one style is and you've NEVER competed? Yeah, I AM having a little trouble with that. Having any respect for that opinion. 

That's ballsy IMO. Go tell Snyder or Stevenson they're competing in the Women's style, the soft style...they're not tough because they're not Wrestling Greco!

 

As for Rutt...he was a stud. But when you come up with examples about how GREAT and superior Greco is using the NCAAs, you need to do a little better than going back a decade for a 1X AA. I'd have gone with Schultz personally, but even then, he not only got smoked by a Freestyle Wrestler because he was just a MUCH better athlete, but HWT's is the one weight that tends to favor Greco with the handfighting and how few people like to shoot and get under a HWT.

 

You'll still see guys like Kerkvliet, Snyder, Gwiazdowski win 9X out of 10 when matched up with a Greco guy, but Christ, it's better than having to go back to Travis Rutt to make your point. 

[LJB]

so...

@scourge165

who are your favorite international greco guys?

i do not want to assume you did not watch any of zagreb greco, so, perhaps you could post your favorite match from last weekend...

 

the boys and i are totally geeking out over mohammadi right now...

i mohammadi...

not his older brother a. mohammadi... who is still a killer...

and of course...

who does not love Datunashvili, amiright????????

[LJB]

i just remembered...

how excited are you guys for vlasov wrestling in april?

@scourge165 who is it he is wrestling again?

i am struggling to remember right off the top of my head...

can you help a brother out?