Weigh-ins

[gimpeltf]

Someone suggested having them weighin matside when double deck. Think of trying to do this this past year at NCAAs. There wasn't enough room matside as it was for the now wrestling group. People had to walk through the center of the mats to access/egress as it was. People here are making a lot of suggestions without thinking through them. 

[boconnell]

3 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

The debate has been had here before.

 

On logistics ….  Calibrate scales before competition.  Each scale is official at each mat.  Time comes to weigh shortly before match.  Get weighed. Done.

Do not get to walk around and scale ‘shop.’   Easy rule.
 

Will there be more forfeits early on?  Yes.  Will they drop significantly as the rule change is digested?  Yes.  Will there more at equilibrium than there are today?  I don’t know.
 

What about a scale being off by a little bit?  I bet a process could be worked out.  That said,  we deal with ref judgment calls on points.  Score table stopping clock either precisely at whistle or near it.  OOB calls.  Stalling calls.  Precise or imprecise start and stop times for injury time, recovery time and blood time. None are scientifically 100% accurate.  A scale being off by 0.1 lbs is a risk but like most else there are ways to avoid getting hit by that risk.

So you think after every scale being in play for as along as weighins existed we can just switch to one scale?  Knowing that it's a short matter of time before someone misses by a tenth or two on a 'heavy' scale, when they could have made it on another mat.  And you think referee judgement is what's going to make that okay?  

I think this is slightly more realistic than just switching to an honor system regarding weight.

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, gimpeltf said:

Someone suggested having them weighin matside when double deck. Think of trying to do this this past year at NCAAs. There wasn't enough room matside as it was for the now wrestling group. People had to walk through the center of the mats to access/egress as it was. People here are making a lot of suggestions without thinking through them. 

Yep.  We changed the out of bounds rules in HS wrestling last year and it was slightly better for wrestling action and terrible for the huge majority of tournaments that remove edge sections to fit more mats.  There are already tables on top of action and spectators everywhere at most tournaments you attend.  Now we're going to add space for scales.  That's not a reason to keep allowing unsafe weight cutting procedures, but it is an actual thing that must be considered.  

[boconnell]

On 4/11/2025 at 3:56 AM, NYupstate said:

Personally, I would have weigh-in happen when on deck or double deck. Wrestler would wear shoes and singlet. Then put on braces or other wraps. 

Or maybe if one needs a heavy brace that is an indicator to not wrestle that day... 

That is a good question though.

You asked for an example of what I meant when I said you were dismissive.  Here's an example.  The suggestion that anyone with a brace shouldn't wrestle that day.  That's a wild suggestion that protective equipment shouldn't be used.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

15 minutes ago, boconnell said:

You asked for an example of what I meant when I said you were dismissive.  Here's an example.  The suggestion that anyone with a brace shouldn't wrestle that day.  That's a wild suggestion that protective equipment shouldn't be used.  

It actually falls in line with existing rules regarding prosthetics.

I would be for mat side weigh ins at duals and to start a tourney, but the amount of time to put on braces, kneepads, etc. would be painful.

I think you just have everyone weigh in one after another and the first wrestlers hopefully have time to get fully equipped for their match once everyone makes weight.

[Dark Energy]

I get that there are open questions on logistics.  But I do believe that if there was a desire to change, it would be figured out.  This really isn’t rocket science.  Solutions vary from one to two centralized locations to weigh in, at the mat itself, or something in between.  I have faith that if we wanted to change, we’d figure this out.  
 

Many on here must think it is impossible to land a rocket vertically.  I have faith in human ingenuity.

[Dark Energy]

59 minutes ago, boconnell said:

So you think after every scale being in play for as along as weighins existed we can just switch to one scale?  Knowing that it's a short matter of time before someone misses by a tenth or two on a 'heavy' scale, when they could have made it on another mat.  And you think referee judgement is what's going to make that okay?  

I think this is slightly more realistic than just switching to an honor system regarding weight.

And who is being dismissive?  ‘Slightly more realistic’. … ok.  
 

I’ve already addressed the point above.  We view things differently, and that is ok.

[Jim L]

32 minutes ago, Dark Energy said:

I get that there are open questions on logistics.  But I do believe that if there was a desire to change, it would be figured out.  This really isn’t rocket science.  Solutions vary from one to two centralized locations to weigh in, at the mat itself, or something in between.  I have faith that if we wanted to change, we’d figure this out.  
 

Many on here must think it is impossible to land a rocket vertically.  I have faith in human ingenuity.

"Matisde" weigh-in already occur at the big BJJ tournaments without any issues. Uniform, skin and weight check are done in a bullpen before you are allowed to go to the mat area with no delays, a few extra bodies are needed to staff this area.

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:23 PM by Jim L

[Formally140]

4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

What about a scale that is "off a little bit" now?  Have there been more forfeits?

I remember talking to a high school coach when the rule came in that kids couldn't strip down to weigh in nude. (A crazy practice when you consider it years later)  "What if a kid is .1 over?"  He couldn't get it through his head that it would all work out.  I'm sure he thought there would be ton of forfeits from not allowing teenaged boys to strip nude!

Those things aren't equivalent 

[Formally140]

14 minutes ago, Jim L said:

"Matisde" weigh-in already occur at the big BJJ tournaments without any issues. Uniform, skin and weight check are done in a bullpen before you are allowed to go to the mat area with no delays, a few extra bodies are needed to staff this area.

 

The forfeit issue isn't for tournaments

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

10 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Those things aren't equivalent 

Yes they are.

.1 over because a scale is "off'"  The old solution was to disrobe.  People were concerned there would be forfeits left and right if a kid didn't drop trou.  It didn't happen.

[Formally140]

23 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Yes they are.

.1 over because a scale is "off'"  The old solution was to disrobe.  People were concerned there would be forfeits left and right if a kid didn't drop trou.  It didn't happen.

A kid missing weight by .1 isn't the same as a coach not being  able to fill a lineup because he couldn't fill 132 and 138 because two kids were around 135 and apparently It's too dangerous for one of them to eat clean and sweat a little. Then safely refuel. 

Again, I understand that even the slightest suggestion of weight management is automatically equivalent to college kids sweating over 10 pounds on creatine. So I'm well aware of "tHEy sHOunLDnt mAnAgE weight at all" argument. That ignores all context and subtlety. 
 

Again, I'm mostly on the "if it happens it happens". About whether or not they institute mat side weigh-ins. But pretending that it wouldn't lead to more forfeits, especially in dual meets, and smaller programs will get hurt more than big ones. 

My whole point is that people need to stop pretending that obvious ramifications won't happen. 

Besides, the ACTUAL issue with the current rules isn't that they don't work. It's that no one's willing to actually enforce on the teans blatantly cheating the hydration test or actually consistently enforce/audit things things like kids going up and down more than a couple weight classes. And it would be pretty easy to audit using the opc.

*also, considering half the dudes at bjj tournaments are very openly on the gear. Yeah weight cutting isn't as big a deal when you have better strength and cardio not technically allowed in wrestling. Both sports have issues with PEDs but bjj they barely test if at all. 
 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

15 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

A kid missing weight by .1 isn't the same as a coach not being  able to fill a lineup because he couldn't fill 132 and 138 because two kids were around 135 and apparently It's too dangerous for one of them to eat clean and sweat a little. Then safely refuel. 

Again, I understand that even the slightest suggestion of weight management is automatically equivalent to college kids sweating over 10 pounds on creatine. So I'm well aware of "tHEy sHOunLDnt mAnAgE weight at all" argument. That ignores all context and subtlety. 
 

Again, I'm mostly on the "if it happens it happens". About whether or not they institute mat side weigh-ins. But pretending that it wouldn't lead to more forfeits, especially in dual meets, and smaller programs will get hurt more than big ones. 

My whole point is that people need to stop pretending that obvious ramifications won't happen. 

Besides, the ACTUAL issue with the current rules isn't that they don't work. It's that no one's willing to actually enforce on the teans blatantly cheating the hydration test or actually consistently enforce/audit things things like kids going up and down more than a couple weight classes. And it would be pretty easy to audit using the opc.

*also, considering half the dudes at bjj tournaments are very openly on the gear. Yeah weight cutting isn't as big a deal when you have better strength and cardio not technically allowed in wrestling. Both sports have issues with PEDs but bjj they barely test if at all. 
 

 

Creatine? Sweating on creatine? lol

But for the record, the current NFHS rules are the best system I have seen in my years of involvement with high school wrestling.  It could be tweaked a little, but I am fine with it.

Edited Tuesday at 05:45 PM by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Formally140]

21 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Creatine? Sweating on creatine? lol

A major contributing factor to the deaths of the wrestlers in the 90s was they were on creatine. 
that was impetus for the rules changes, that were much needed. 
 

my point was that any mention of anything involving weight management is automatically treated as directly equivalent to dumbass dangerous crap they did back in the day. Which is disingenuous. 
 

and again, two things can be true at once. I can be okay with the rule being implemented.. and also think an obvious set of consequences is that

1. more forfeits will occur. Especially in dual meets
2. Smaller schools will be disproportionately affected, irregardless of how hard a coach recruits or hustles to get kids out. Which exasperates the issues already going on. 
3. I think people underestimate how much fluctuations will occur in weight between drinking and sweating. Bjj weight classes are usually much further apart than hs ones. If you spread out hs weight classes. If you spread out weight classes to emphasize being at walking around weight.. There's  already been lawsuits in the past about weight class gaps.. it directly led to the weight class changes taking out 140 and putting 182 

Again, these are all obvious, rational ramifications of implementing mat side weigh ins. Any actual discussion needs to be honest. The real problems are pretending these aren't real issues and the pretending any weight management is automatically 1990s style plastics running 

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:59 PM by Formally140
Apologies for grammar errors

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

A major contributing factor to the deaths of the wrestlers in the 90s was they were on creatine. 
that was impetus for the rules changes, that were much needed. 

 

Absolutely untrue.  Pseudoscience.  Bro-science etc.  This is something that is untrue and has been passed from generation to generation of wrestlers who haven't paid attention to the literature.

Quite the opposite: Creatine has actually been shown to mitigate the effects of dehydration and heat illness.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7871530/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-creatine/art-20347591

(and what good sources said they were on creatine?  There was confusion, bc there was talk about creatinine levels in autopsies.  This is different than creatine.)

Edited Tuesday at 06:05 PM by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[Formally140]

33 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Absolutely untrue.  Pseudoscience.  Bro-science etc.  This is something that is untrue and has been passed from generation to generation of wrestlers who haven't paid attention to the literature.

Quite the opposite: Creatine has actually been shown to mitigate the effects of dehydration and heat illness.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7871530/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-creatine/art-20347591

(and what good sources said they were on creatine?  There was confusion, bc there was talk about creatinine levels in autopsies.  This is different than creatine.)

Thank you for the literature. But that doesn't actually mitigate my overall point. The discussion about weight management automatically goes to those extremes 

[boconnell]

5 hours ago, Dark Energy said:

And who is being dismissive?  ‘Slightly more realistic’. … ok.  
 

I’ve already addressed the point above.  We view things differently, and that is ok.

I'm being dismissive for sure.  I think the idea that you use multiple scales that are slightly different but not everybody gets to use each scale should be dismissed.  It's a terrible idea.  I dismiss it.  

If I had started the thread by saying I don't have much experience and I am just here to ask questions, and then I dismissed an idea i asked for, that would be weird.  

[boconnell]

5 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

It actually falls in line with existing rules regarding prosthetics.

I would be for mat side weigh ins at duals and to start a tourney, but the amount of time to put on braces, kneepads, etc. would be painful.

I think you just have everyone weigh in one after another and the first wrestlers hopefully have time to get fully equipped for their match once everyone makes weight.

How does it fall in line with rules regarding prosthetics? 

Braces are allowed.  They take time to put on.  My 215 this year wrestled with a shoulder wrap brace all season that took about 2 minutes to put on, and he required another person's assistance getting it on.  It definitely weight a few tenths.  How do you account for it?  Does he weigh in without it and then we pause while he puts it on?  Or does he weigh in with it and he's out of luck because he needs a brace?  I agree with the sentiment expressed elsewhere in this thread that it's not rocket science and it can be figured out.  I massively disagree with the idea that he shouldn't be wrestling that day because he needs a brace.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

Just now, boconnell said:

How does it fall in line with rules regarding prosthetics? 

Braces are allowed.  They take time to put on.  My 215 this year wrestled with a shoulder wrap brace all season that took about 2 minutes to put on, and he required another person's assistance getting it on.  It definitely weight a few tenths.  How do you account for it?  Does he weigh in without it and then we pause while he puts it on?  Or does he weigh in with it and he's out of luck because he needs a brace?  I agree with the sentiment expressed elsewhere in this thread that it's not rocket science and it can be figured out.  I massively disagree with the idea that he shouldn't be wrestling that day because he needs a brace.  

Rule 4 Section 5 Article 9

And I never said he shouldn't be wrestling without a brace.

[boconnell]

13 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Rule 4 Section 5 Article 9

And I never said he shouldn't be wrestling without a brace.

I got you.  You are talking about actual prosthetic limbs.  Makes sense.

[OMW]

1 hour ago, boconnell said:

I'm being dismissive for sure.  I think the idea that you use multiple scales that are slightly different but not everybody gets to use each scale should be dismissed.  It's a terrible idea.  I dismiss it.  

This.

One scale in staging, matches are assigned, wrestlers step on the scale and head to the mat (or don't, depending on what the scale reads).

That's as "mat side" as it needs to be. Makes the logistics and set-up somewhat easy.

 

Edited Tuesday at 10:56 PM by OMW

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, OMW said:

This.

One scale in staging, matches are assigned, wrestlers step on the scale and head to the mat (or don't, depending on what the scale reads).

That's as "mat side" as it needs to be. Makes the logistics and set-up somewhat easy.

 

Someone earlier said it wasn't rocket science and we could figure out how to do it.  This seems like a great way.  So you're not a rocket scientist, but you're smarter than I am for this idea. 

The only issue I see is that it requires an additional ref which isn't cheap or easy to staff.  We are way short of refs in Washington and when they're available you spend a higher percent on refs than ever before.  

[jross]

A simple solution is to have the wrestler step on the scale with whatever they are wrestling in.  Facemask, brace, tape, shoes, singlet, whatever.  Maybe Johnnie will check his weight on all the verified scales before the meet starts.  Johnnie will adapt.  "But I'm a tweener."  "This is wrestling.  No one cares."  

[1032004]

9 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Absolutely untrue.  Pseudoscience.  Bro-science etc.  This is something that is untrue and has been passed from generation to generation of wrestlers who haven't paid attention to the literature.

Quite the opposite: Creatine has actually been shown to mitigate the effects of dehydration and heat illness.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7871530/

https://www.mayoclinic.org/drugs-supplements-creatine/art-20347591

(and what good sources said they were on creatine?  There was confusion, bc there was talk about creatinine levels in autopsies.  This is different than creatine.)

And isn’t creatine for gaining muscle/weight?  Why would someone trying to lose weight be taking it?

[NYupstate]

5 hours ago, 1032004 said:

And isn’t creatine for gaining muscle/weight?  Why would someone trying to lose weight be taking it?

Perhaps because of the impression it would help maintain muscle mass and cause weight loss from other tissues? I am not saying it does that, just some people might beleive it to be so.