Kolat vs Bassett

[Truzzcat]

9 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Do you know if wrestled at the Ironman, Beast of the East, Powerade, Super 52 or Fargo? That would help determine how he would be ranked.

I know he won Beast and he beat Marinelli at super 32 in 14 I believe I was like 13 though so my memory may not be accurate.

[Paul158]

29 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

I know he won Beast and he beat Marinelli at super 32 in 14 I believe I was like 13 though so my memory may not be accurate.

That was a good win.

[scourge165]

On 2/9/2025 at 7:35 PM, billyhoyle said:

No.  I'm using Kyle Snyder's accomplishments as a true freshman to discount the senior years of Kolat and Bassett in relation to him. At the same age that they were/will finish high school, Snyder was beating Gadisov.  I don't think it's close between him and those two.  I'd say after Snyder, I'd probably have a number of people ahead of Kolat/Bassett, including Schultz, Cejudo, and Steveson (Steveson did not lose in high school matches after age 13 and was a 2X cadet and 1X junior world champion).   

For Schultz, I'll take the argument against him being that he wasn't peaking until his senior year. But I think peak performance is a much better indicator of how good somebody was in high school than how good they were at 14.  That's why I rank him second--because what he accomplished senior year was unprecedented. 

Having Phillips anywhere on this list is wildly overrating him though. By his senior year, he was the #9 recruit in his class. Everyone knew he had fallen off from his freshman year and he barely wrestled outside of Ohio. 

 

 

You're using what Kyle Snyder did AFTER a year of College...to compare the best HIGH SCHOOL Wrestlers of all-time.

That's a ridiculous argument. Guys graduate at different ages. You take a guy, you have him wrestle for a year at the Olympic Training Center, THEN have him Wrestle at the NCAA's for a year and in the Ohio State room...they're going to improve more than Wrestling the schedule Cary Kolat did...where he got little to no competition. 

And it's just NOT high school. No matter how much you'd like it to be or the fact that he could possibly still have been in High School, he wasn't. 

 

Tyler Kasak could still be in High School. He is not. He also sat out a year and trained with the NLWC I believe and David Taylor's club and then Wrestled a Varsity season. I THINK he's 19 years old. 

Gable Stevenson...does his Freshmen season count for his HS career?

You don't just magically develop due the date on a calendar, you do it based on the competition you face. 

As for Schultz, I think a HS Career is...a HS career, not one year. Jake Deitchler appear on this list? How about Jimmy Carr? No, because it's a cumulative list(by virtually everyone). 

 

Quote

Having Phillips anywhere on this list is wildly overrating him though.

Then keep him off yours. He's on mine. I think having a 1X State Champ who had a DNP, 4, 4 is  "wildly overrating" but he had a great year and if YOU want to put him on for one INCREDIBLE year, go for it. 

 

[scourge165]

On 2/10/2025 at 12:47 PM, BAC said:

It's kinda old, but here is a ranking of top 20 high school wresters from 1986-2007.  (It has Kolat #1.)  Since then, there's been several guys whose accomplishments are on par with Kolat.

The main argument for putting Kolat on the top of a "best high school ever" list is that his accomplishments were at a time it was extremely rare for a high schooler to be that good.  The tip of the spear of high school wrestlers is much pointer now than it was then.  There just wasn't the same access to top-level techniques then as there is now, and training year-round is a relatively modern development. Kolat was an bigger outlier than these other guys.  Think Babe Ruth:  he doesn't currently hold the single-season HR record, but he hit 60 HRs in a season when the record was 27 when he started.

To be fair, even in Kolat's time, there were probably other high school guys who were as or nearly as good as he was, but we didn't have the same sort of national-level tournaments or access to college and international tournaments. Think Lincoln McIlravy, who won NCAAs as a true freshman.  (Or earlier:  look at Kolat's own hero, Jimmy Carr, who made the Olympic team at 17.)

Today, though, there's usually a few high schoolers each year who would be legit AA contenders in college, and they are easier to identify.  Bassett, Forrest, Duke and Blaze would probably all be favored to AA right now.  Blaze's accomplishments in particular are at least on a par with Kolat. 

That said, some of the guys being discussed shouldn't even be in the conversation.  I mean... Chris Phillips? Come on, that's like saying Cody Gardner or David Craig, all guys who had a lot of high school hype but never panned out college and don't have any international accomplishments to point to.  There's thousands of guys with multiple state titles and just a handful of high school losses, but that doesn't tell us much.

Personally, the criteria I'd use to determine the best high school wrestlers would be (1) wins over top-tier college or international competition while still in high school, and (2) performance as a freshman in college (as a frame of reference).  That's the only way to separate guys out.  In recent years, that points to guys like Spencer Lee, Mark Hall, Gable Steveson, Kyle Snyder, David Taylor, Yianni D, Logan Stieber, Kyle Dake, and so on.

This is why I think Kolat is #1. What he was doing was nearly unprecedented.

With regard to Chris Phillips, he wasn't just "hype," and if he panned out in College or not is immaterial. This is the best HS Wrestler. 

I don't know if there are "thousands of guys with multiple state titles and just a handful of high school losses," but Chris Phillips had ONE HS loss...to Ed Ruth at the Iron Man and he won 4 State Titles in Ohio at 171.

He made the decision to not Wrestle in College. That doesn't change how dominant he was in College anymore than Marstellar's lack of a NC changes his Collegiate credentials. I know Phillips won one Fargo Title as an 8th grader and you could look to what Ryan said about him in the room at OSU. He didn't "fail" he just..didn't want to do it. But doing what he did in Ohio at 171...I disagree. 

 

How many guys have 6 Junior National Titles? 

I know Garrett Lowney did. He also went to the Olympics at 19 and took a Bronze and had a...successful career given his limited size and how great HWT was at the time.

[BAC]

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

This is why I think Kolat is #1. What he was doing was nearly unprecedented.

With regard to Chris Phillips, he wasn't just "hype," and if he panned out in College or not is immaterial. This is the best HS Wrestler. 

I don't know if there are "thousands of guys with multiple state titles and just a handful of high school losses," but Chris Phillips had ONE HS loss...to Ed Ruth at the Iron Man and he won 4 State Titles in Ohio at 171.

He made the decision to not Wrestle in College. That doesn't change how dominant he was in College anymore than Marstellar's lack of a NC changes his Collegiate credentials. I know Phillips won one Fargo Title as an 8th grader and you could look to what Ryan said about him in the room at OSU. He didn't "fail" he just..didn't want to do it. But doing what he did in Ohio at 171...I disagree. 

 

How many guys have 6 Junior National Titles? 

I know Garrett Lowney did. He also went to the Olympics at 19 and took a Bronze and had a...successful career given his limited size and how great HWT was at the time.

I'm with you on Kolat.  Although I agree with Billy that others have surpassed his accomplishments, when you factor in what he did relative to his time, there's a good case to have him #1.

I'm not with you on Phillips. 

I'm sorry to keep beating this drum, but I really don't get where you guys are coming from on Phillips.

He has zero Junior National freestyle titles or AA finishes, zero NHSCA folkstyle titles or AA finishes, zero Cadet or Junior world medals, zero age-group world teams qualified for, zero wins in the US Open.

To be fair, he also didn't compete in these events.  (Well, he tried out for FILA Cadets one year, but got pinned by Corey Peltier.)  But we can't just hand him wins he didn't earn.  That's the definition of "hype."

How about his wins?  Has he beaten any NCAA champions while in high school?  Any NCAA All-Americans?  Any college wrestlers at all?  No, no, and no. Just other high schoolers.

So how can you possibly put him above all these scores of guys who, as high schoolers, secured wins over college AAs, raked in international medals, and won national tournaments where the age wasn't capped at 16?  I truly don't see the argument.  

All he has to his credit is a high school record with one official loss.  That's nice, but in the context of "best ever," they're a dime a dozen. 

Ever hear of Cody Miller? He finished his high school career last year undefeated (143-0 in Washington).  Is he best ever, since he has one less loss than Phillips?  How about Peyton Ellis?  Last year, he finished his high school career undefeated too, in Rhode Island.  Is he better than Phillips?  Best ever?  Never mind that Miller decided to become a jeweler rather than wrestle in college, and Ellis went D-III, since college is "immaterial" according to you.

Right here is a 20-year-old list of several dozen more undefeated high school wrestlers, there's been dozens more since then, but Phillips has to be behind all of them, right?  And this is without getting to the even-longer list of one-loss high school wrestlers.

If you say "yeah but who did they beat," then I say:  My point exactly.  See above. Phillips' hit-list is wafer thin, as are his out-of-season accomplishments, compared to the long list of guys that deserve to be ahead of Phillips.

I'd be more open-minded to the Phillips argument if, despite seldom straying from his tiny school in Ohio's small-school division, he went on to wrestle D1 and, say, made the finals or won his freshman year on college. Then at least we could say, "dang, despite not wrestling or beating anyone well-known his last 2-3 years in high school, he must have been REALLY good since he was in the D1 natty finals just a year later." Let's call it the "Lincoln McIlravy exception," based on the relatively little-known high schooler who went unbeaten in tiny South Dakota, but won NCAAs as a true freshman, so suddenly he's in the "best high schooler ever" conversation.

But that didn't happen.  Phillips went to UNC, didn't work out for whatever reason, went to Ohio State, didn't work out for whatever reason there, either.  Not sure if he had any college wins at all.

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, you can put him wherever you want on your list.  But if we're going off facts, he's definitely not top 100, and probably not top 200.  He's not even in my top 10 of Ohio wrestlers.

Edited 3 hours ago by BAC

[MPhillips]

I think all these cats understand and appreciate that numbers, names, dates, etc. are how rankings are determined and judged.  With that said, Phillips is still there. There's something to that...

Cheers to @OH-IO for the thread. Been a good one.

[OH-IO]

41 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

I think all these cats understand and appreciate that numbers, names, dates, etc. are how rankings are determined and judged.  With that said, Phillips is still there. There's something to that...

Cheers to @OH-IO for the thread. Been a good one.

with all do respect to BAC, to us and those like us, we all know Chris Phillips 195-1  IN HIGH SCHOOL

nothing about college whatso ever should be figured in, heck now-a-days we got guys wrestling 7 years into their college careers, heck you give me healthy knees and some quick-twitch fibers back and put me in the PSU wrestling room i might AA lol.....(redshirts, Olympic year, Covid year, medical, and dad left mom), heck even the transfer portal is something new to me...... 

yes corey did CATCH chris and pinned him @ FILA CADETS, chris was well ahead tho (remember when Senior Ruth got caught and pinned at the Beast by a Sophmore from MSJ in MD)...also dont forget Chris destroyed Corey Peltier Later @ Ironman 9-5 (all point from Chris letting him up) BAC I respect you my friend but there really is a different life in states such as PA, MI, IA, OH, NJ etc when it comes to wrestling, there are high school wrestlers from these states that dont make it to states that would go elsewhere and possibly win state titles, I also think it is crazy that you can be 19+ years of age and still able to play sports in HS ......I will say this i tried to spread the top 10 around a litlle sure we could just go to all the lower weight guys,  I was fair and respectful and really tried to give a portion to all weights not just the wrestlers who are 2 years ahead of others still wrestling in HS when they could actually be Soph's in college, i really cant imagine being 19 (close to 20) wrestling 13-14 yr old HIGH SCHOOL aged wrestlers and at a weight 100-150 (I did not hold that against anyone nor did I hold the fact that someone didnt wrestle outside his state which happens to be 1 of the best states for wrestling, this is the best HS wrestlers of all time and at 171 their was a kid from monroeville OH who went 195-1 in HS and I respectfully say this his HS career and how good he was to many place him as the best 171 wrestler ever, yes he lost 1 time to Ruth I believe Ruth lost nearly 20x in HS (once getting pinned after winning ironman) was also a 19 years old Senior @ Blair after an average career while in PA high schools (i believe 2 or 3 years and 1 @ Blair)........

If he is not even in your top 10 in OHIO than you are only including lower weights and maybe a few heavys.......chris changed where an entire state of wrestlers wrestled for 4 years in Ohio, nobody was scared of him, they just understood that if they wanted to win a State title they werent gonna do it at Chris's weight D3 or not!!   Many believe chris could have won a State tile @ 171 in middle school, most believe he could have placed since 6th grade and we are not talking about 90lbs , OH-IO people know their wrestling