Kolat vs Bassett

[Truzzcat]

9 minutes ago, Paul158 said:

Do you know if wrestled at the Ironman, Beast of the East, Powerade, Super 52 or Fargo? That would help determine how he would be ranked.

I know he won Beast and he beat Marinelli at super 32 in 14 I believe I was like 13 though so my memory may not be accurate.

[Paul158]

29 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

I know he won Beast and he beat Marinelli at super 32 in 14 I believe I was like 13 though so my memory may not be accurate.

That was a good win.

[scourge165]

On 2/9/2025 at 7:35 PM, billyhoyle said:

No.  I'm using Kyle Snyder's accomplishments as a true freshman to discount the senior years of Kolat and Bassett in relation to him. At the same age that they were/will finish high school, Snyder was beating Gadisov.  I don't think it's close between him and those two.  I'd say after Snyder, I'd probably have a number of people ahead of Kolat/Bassett, including Schultz, Cejudo, and Steveson (Steveson did not lose in high school matches after age 13 and was a 2X cadet and 1X junior world champion).   

For Schultz, I'll take the argument against him being that he wasn't peaking until his senior year. But I think peak performance is a much better indicator of how good somebody was in high school than how good they were at 14.  That's why I rank him second--because what he accomplished senior year was unprecedented. 

Having Phillips anywhere on this list is wildly overrating him though. By his senior year, he was the #9 recruit in his class. Everyone knew he had fallen off from his freshman year and he barely wrestled outside of Ohio. 

 

 

You're using what Kyle Snyder did AFTER a year of College...to compare the best HIGH SCHOOL Wrestlers of all-time.

That's a ridiculous argument. Guys graduate at different ages. You take a guy, you have him wrestle for a year at the Olympic Training Center, THEN have him Wrestle at the NCAA's for a year and in the Ohio State room...they're going to improve more than Wrestling the schedule Cary Kolat did...where he got little to no competition. 

And it's just NOT high school. No matter how much you'd like it to be or the fact that he could possibly still have been in High School, he wasn't. 

 

Tyler Kasak could still be in High School. He is not. He also sat out a year and trained with the NLWC I believe and David Taylor's club and then Wrestled a Varsity season. I THINK he's 19 years old. 

Gable Stevenson...does his Freshmen season count for his HS career?

You don't just magically develop due the date on a calendar, you do it based on the competition you face. 

As for Schultz, I think a HS Career is...a HS career, not one year. Jake Deitchler appear on this list? How about Jimmy Carr? No, because it's a cumulative list(by virtually everyone). 

 

Quote

Having Phillips anywhere on this list is wildly overrating him though.

Then keep him off yours. He's on mine. I think having a 1X State Champ who had a DNP, 4, 4 is  "wildly overrating" but he had a great year and if YOU want to put him on for one INCREDIBLE year, go for it. 

 

[scourge165]

On 2/10/2025 at 12:47 PM, BAC said:

It's kinda old, but here is a ranking of top 20 high school wresters from 1986-2007.  (It has Kolat #1.)  Since then, there's been several guys whose accomplishments are on par with Kolat.

The main argument for putting Kolat on the top of a "best high school ever" list is that his accomplishments were at a time it was extremely rare for a high schooler to be that good.  The tip of the spear of high school wrestlers is much pointer now than it was then.  There just wasn't the same access to top-level techniques then as there is now, and training year-round is a relatively modern development. Kolat was an bigger outlier than these other guys.  Think Babe Ruth:  he doesn't currently hold the single-season HR record, but he hit 60 HRs in a season when the record was 27 when he started.

To be fair, even in Kolat's time, there were probably other high school guys who were as or nearly as good as he was, but we didn't have the same sort of national-level tournaments or access to college and international tournaments. Think Lincoln McIlravy, who won NCAAs as a true freshman.  (Or earlier:  look at Kolat's own hero, Jimmy Carr, who made the Olympic team at 17.)

Today, though, there's usually a few high schoolers each year who would be legit AA contenders in college, and they are easier to identify.  Bassett, Forrest, Duke and Blaze would probably all be favored to AA right now.  Blaze's accomplishments in particular are at least on a par with Kolat. 

That said, some of the guys being discussed shouldn't even be in the conversation.  I mean... Chris Phillips? Come on, that's like saying Cody Gardner or David Craig, all guys who had a lot of high school hype but never panned out college and don't have any international accomplishments to point to.  There's thousands of guys with multiple state titles and just a handful of high school losses, but that doesn't tell us much.

Personally, the criteria I'd use to determine the best high school wrestlers would be (1) wins over top-tier college or international competition while still in high school, and (2) performance as a freshman in college (as a frame of reference).  That's the only way to separate guys out.  In recent years, that points to guys like Spencer Lee, Mark Hall, Gable Steveson, Kyle Snyder, David Taylor, Yianni D, Logan Stieber, Kyle Dake, and so on.

This is why I think Kolat is #1. What he was doing was nearly unprecedented.

With regard to Chris Phillips, he wasn't just "hype," and if he panned out in College or not is immaterial. This is the best HS Wrestler. 

I don't know if there are "thousands of guys with multiple state titles and just a handful of high school losses," but Chris Phillips had ONE HS loss...to Ed Ruth at the Iron Man and he won 4 State Titles in Ohio at 171.

He made the decision to not Wrestle in College. That doesn't change how dominant he was in College anymore than Marstellar's lack of a NC changes his Collegiate credentials. I know Phillips won one Fargo Title as an 8th grader and you could look to what Ryan said about him in the room at OSU. He didn't "fail" he just..didn't want to do it. But doing what he did in Ohio at 171...I disagree. 

 

How many guys have 6 Junior National Titles? 

I know Garrett Lowney did. He also went to the Olympics at 19 and took a Bronze and had a...successful career given his limited size and how great HWT was at the time.

[BAC]

3 hours ago, scourge165 said:

This is why I think Kolat is #1. What he was doing was nearly unprecedented.

With regard to Chris Phillips, he wasn't just "hype," and if he panned out in College or not is immaterial. This is the best HS Wrestler. 

I don't know if there are "thousands of guys with multiple state titles and just a handful of high school losses," but Chris Phillips had ONE HS loss...to Ed Ruth at the Iron Man and he won 4 State Titles in Ohio at 171.

He made the decision to not Wrestle in College. That doesn't change how dominant he was in College anymore than Marstellar's lack of a NC changes his Collegiate credentials. I know Phillips won one Fargo Title as an 8th grader and you could look to what Ryan said about him in the room at OSU. He didn't "fail" he just..didn't want to do it. But doing what he did in Ohio at 171...I disagree. 

 

How many guys have 6 Junior National Titles? 

I know Garrett Lowney did. He also went to the Olympics at 19 and took a Bronze and had a...successful career given his limited size and how great HWT was at the time.

I'm with you on Kolat.  Although I agree with Billy that others have surpassed his accomplishments, when you factor in what he did relative to his time, there's a good case to have him #1.

I'm not with you on Phillips. 

I'm sorry to keep beating this drum, but I really don't get where you guys are coming from on Phillips.

He has zero Junior National freestyle titles or AA finishes, zero NHSCA folkstyle titles or AA finishes, zero Cadet or Junior world medals, zero age-group world teams qualified for, zero wins in the US Open.

To be fair, he also didn't compete in these events.  (Well, he tried out for FILA Cadets one year, but got pinned by Corey Peltier.)  But we can't just hand him wins he didn't earn.  That's the definition of "hype."

How about his wins?  Has he beaten any NCAA champions while in high school?  Any NCAA All-Americans?  Any college wrestlers at all?  No, no, and no. Just other high schoolers.

So how can you possibly put him above all these scores of guys who, as high schoolers, secured wins over college AAs, raked in international medals, and won national tournaments where the age wasn't capped at 16?  I truly don't see the argument.  

All he has to his credit is a high school record with one official loss.  That's nice, but in the context of "best ever," they're a dime a dozen. 

Ever hear of Cody Miller? He finished his high school career last year undefeated (143-0 in Washington).  Is he best ever, since he has one less loss than Phillips?  How about Peyton Ellis?  Last year, he finished his high school career undefeated too, in Rhode Island.  Is he better than Phillips?  Best ever?  Never mind that Miller decided to become a jeweler rather than wrestle in college, and Ellis went D-III, since college is "immaterial" according to you.

Right here is a 20-year-old list of several dozen more undefeated high school wrestlers, there's been dozens more since then, but Phillips has to be behind all of them, right?  And this is without getting to the even-longer list of one-loss high school wrestlers.

If you say "yeah but who did they beat," then I say:  My point exactly.  See above. Phillips' hit-list is wafer thin, as are his out-of-season accomplishments, compared to the long list of guys that deserve to be ahead of Phillips.

I'd be more open-minded to the Phillips argument if, despite seldom straying from his tiny school in Ohio's small-school division, he went on to wrestle D1 and, say, made the finals or won his freshman year on college. Then at least we could say, "dang, despite not wrestling or beating anyone well-known his last 2-3 years in high school, he must have been REALLY good since he was in the D1 natty finals just a year later." Let's call it the "Lincoln McIlravy exception," based on the relatively little-known high schooler who went unbeaten in tiny South Dakota, but won NCAAs as a true freshman, so suddenly he's in the "best high schooler ever" conversation.

But that didn't happen.  Phillips went to UNC, didn't work out for whatever reason, went to Ohio State, didn't work out for whatever reason there, either.  Not sure if he had any college wins at all.

Look, you're entitled to your opinion, you can put him wherever you want on your list.  But if we're going off facts, he's definitely not top 100, and probably not top 200.  He's not even in my top 10 of Ohio wrestlers.

Edited February 13 by BAC

[MPhillips]

I think all these cats understand and appreciate that numbers, names, dates, etc. are how rankings are determined and judged.  With that said, Phillips is still there. There's something to that...

Cheers to @OH-IO for the thread. Been a good one.

[OH-IO]

41 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

I think all these cats understand and appreciate that numbers, names, dates, etc. are how rankings are determined and judged.  With that said, Phillips is still there. There's something to that...

Cheers to @OH-IO for the thread. Been a good one.

with all do respect to BAC, to us and those like us, we all know Chris Phillips 195-1  IN HIGH SCHOOL

nothing about college whatso ever should be figured in, heck now-a-days we got guys wrestling 7 years into their college careers, heck you give me healthy knees and some quick-twitch fibers back and put me in the PSU wrestling room i might AA lol.....(redshirts, Olympic year, Covid year, medical, and dad left mom), heck even the transfer portal is something new to me...... 

yes corey did CATCH chris and pinned him @ FILA CADETS, chris was well ahead tho (remember when Senior Ruth got caught and pinned at the Beast by a Sophmore from MSJ in MD)...also dont forget Chris destroyed Corey Peltier Later @ Ironman 9-5 (all point from Chris letting him up) BAC I respect you my friend but there really is a different life in states such as PA, MI, IA, OH, NJ etc when it comes to wrestling, there are high school wrestlers from these states that dont make it to states that would go elsewhere and possibly win state titles, I also think it is crazy that you can be 19+ years of age and still able to play sports in HS ......I will say this i tried to spread the top 10 around a litlle sure we could just go to all the lower weight guys,  I was fair and respectful and really tried to give a portion to all weights not just the wrestlers who are 2 years ahead of others still wrestling in HS when they could actually be Soph's in college, i really cant imagine being 19 (close to 20) wrestling 13-14 yr old HIGH SCHOOL aged wrestlers and at a weight 100-150 (I did not hold that against anyone nor did I hold the fact that someone didnt wrestle outside his state which happens to be 1 of the best states for wrestling, this is the best HS wrestlers of all time and at 171 their was a kid from monroeville OH who went 195-1 in HS and I respectfully say this his HS career and how good he was to many place him as the best 171 wrestler ever, yes he lost 1 time to Ruth I believe Ruth lost nearly 20x in HS (once getting pinned after winning ironman) was also a 19 years old Senior @ Blair after an average career while in PA high schools (i believe 2 or 3 years and 1 @ Blair)........

If he is not even in your top 10 in OHIO than you are only including lower weights and maybe a few heavys.......chris changed where an entire state of wrestlers wrestled for 4 years in Ohio, nobody was scared of him, they just understood that if they wanted to win a State title they werent gonna do it at Chris's weight D3 or not!!   Many believe chris could have won a State tile @ 171 in middle school, most believe he could have placed since 6th grade and we are not talking about 90lbs , OH-IO people know their wrestling 

[666]

On 2/5/2025 at 2:54 PM, Truzzcat said:

Kolat was well before my time Chance was the closest thing to him for me hearing about him winning matches at college opens when he was in 7th grade was absolutely insane. Chance did not wrestle the circuit the other two did however and by comparison Kolat I don't think was active as Bo. Ive never heard of Kolat taking losses period in high school though. That is probably partially because of the events these kids go to now cadets,juniors,elite 8,super 32,fargo. It seemed like kolat had that aura of being completely untouchable that I'm not sure Bo quite has simply because we have seen him take losses to his peers, but I think that's a product of the national depth we now have and kids having the ability to wrestle so many different places. As far as in season goes Bo is currently 111-0 with 107 wins by bonus so 96.3%. Kolat was 137-0 for his career can't find bonus results. Thats a lot to say I think it's a matter of perspective Kolat may have had a bit more sense of invincibility though.

Wait a minute: Chance was winning college opens in 7th grade? That's ludicrous. Were they D3 backup opens or something?  No offense to Chance or his fans here in the forum, but he wasn't great in college (he was very good though), it seems insane that he was winning college opens in 7th grade. 

[666]

On 2/7/2025 at 8:37 AM, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Midlands was great, but I don't remember active NCAA champs struggling to place.

Me either. NCAAs was at least as tough as Midlands. Nowadays Midlands is easy sauce. 

[Truzzcat]

38 minutes ago, 666 said:

Wait a minute: Chance was winning college opens in 7th grade? That's ludicrous. Were they D3 backup opens or something?  No offense to Chance or his fans here in the forum, but he wasn't great in college (he was very good though), it seems insane that he was winning college opens in 7th grade. 

I don't think he won any opens I know he won matches at the Nittany lion open in 7th grade which at the time was a pretty legit field. Chance really struggled with his addiction in college which I imagine limited him quite a bit and is likely why his best wrestling since has come in his late 20's which is abnormal.

[666]

4 minutes ago, Truzzcat said:

I don't think he won any opens I know he won matches at the Nittany lion open in 7th grade which at the time was a pretty legit field. Chance really struggled with his addiction in college which I imagine limited him quite a bit and is likely why his best wrestling since has come in his late 20's which is abnormal.

Oh....winning matches. That I can accept, hehe. I think that also requires some clarification which I'll now provide: some college wrestlers aren't very good, and some are probably not even that great by HS standards, and I could see a very good 7th grader beating one of those guys.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, 666 said:

Oh....winning matches. That I can accept, hehe. I think that also requires some clarification which I'll now provide: some college wrestlers aren't very good, and some are probably not even that great by HS standards, and I could see a very good 7th grader beating one of those guys.  

He actually beat a PSU backup.  i think "a backup to a backup" might be more accurate.  That is the only 7th grade win that i am aware of.  Not saying there weren't more.

[Paul158]

10 hours ago, OH-IO said:

with all do respect to BAC, to us and those like us, we all know Chris Phillips 195-1  IN HIGH SCHOOL

nothing about college whatso ever should be figured in, heck now-a-days we got guys wrestling 7 years into their college careers, heck you give me healthy knees and some quick-twitch fibers back and put me in the PSU wrestling room i might AA lol.....(redshirts, Olympic year, Covid year, medical, and dad left mom), heck even the transfer portal is something new to me...... 

yes corey did CATCH chris and pinned him @ FILA CADETS, chris was well ahead tho (remember when Senior Ruth got caught and pinned at the Beast by a Sophmore from MSJ in MD)...also dont forget Chris destroyed Corey Peltier Later @ Ironman 9-5 (all point from Chris letting him up) BAC I respect you my friend but there really is a different life in states such as PA, MI, IA, OH, NJ etc when it comes to wrestling, there are high school wrestlers from these states that dont make it to states that would go elsewhere and possibly win state titles, I also think it is crazy that you can be 19+ years of age and still able to play sports in HS ......I will say this i tried to spread the top 10 around a litlle sure we could just go to all the lower weight guys,  I was fair and respectful and really tried to give a portion to all weights not just the wrestlers who are 2 years ahead of others still wrestling in HS when they could actually be Soph's in college, i really cant imagine being 19 (close to 20) wrestling 13-14 yr old HIGH SCHOOL aged wrestlers and at a weight 100-150 (I did not hold that against anyone nor did I hold the fact that someone didnt wrestle outside his state which happens to be 1 of the best states for wrestling, this is the best HS wrestlers of all time and at 171 their was a kid from monroeville OH who went 195-1 in HS and I respectfully say this his HS career and how good he was to many place him as the best 171 wrestler ever, yes he lost 1 time to Ruth I believe Ruth lost nearly 20x in HS (once getting pinned after winning ironman) was also a 19 years old Senior @ Blair after an average career while in PA high schools (i believe 2 or 3 years and 1 @ Blair)........

If he is not even in your top 10 in OHIO than you are only including lower weights and maybe a few heavys.......chris changed where an entire state of wrestlers wrestled for 4 years in Ohio, nobody was scared of him, they just understood that if they wanted to win a State title they werent gonna do it at Chris's weight D3 or not!!   Many believe chris could have won a State tile @ 171 in middle school, most believe he could have placed since 6th grade and we are not talking about 90lbs , OH-IO people know their wrestling 

Very good well thought out summary of high school wrestling. Bravo. There is a difference between wrestling certain states. Sometimes its a huge difference. Most of us know that. There is a difference between wrestling at lower weights when you are a freshman then wrestling in the middle or upper weights Most of us know that. It's a very rare freshman who is 14 and can dominate the middle and upper weights in Pa. and Ohio or New Jersey.

[BAC]

10 hours ago, OH-IO said:

with all do respect to BAC, to us and those like us, we all know Chris Phillips 195-1  IN HIGH SCHOOL

nothing about college whatso ever should be figured in, heck now-a-days we got guys wrestling 7 years into their college careers, heck you give me healthy knees and some quick-twitch fibers back and put me in the PSU wrestling room i might AA lol.....(redshirts, Olympic year, Covid year, medical, and dad left mom), heck even the transfer portal is something new to me...... 

yes corey did CATCH chris and pinned him @ FILA CADETS, chris was well ahead tho (remember when Senior Ruth got caught and pinned at the Beast by a Sophmore from MSJ in MD)...also dont forget Chris destroyed Corey Peltier Later @ Ironman 9-5 (all point from Chris letting him up) BAC I respect you my friend but there really is a different life in states such as PA, MI, IA, OH, NJ etc when it comes to wrestling, there are high school wrestlers from these states that dont make it to states that would go elsewhere and possibly win state titles, I also think it is crazy that you can be 19+ years of age and still able to play sports in HS ......I will say this i tried to spread the top 10 around a litlle sure we could just go to all the lower weight guys,  I was fair and respectful and really tried to give a portion to all weights not just the wrestlers who are 2 years ahead of others still wrestling in HS when they could actually be Soph's in college, i really cant imagine being 19 (close to 20) wrestling 13-14 yr old HIGH SCHOOL aged wrestlers and at a weight 100-150 (I did not hold that against anyone nor did I hold the fact that someone didnt wrestle outside his state which happens to be 1 of the best states for wrestling, this is the best HS wrestlers of all time and at 171 their was a kid from monroeville OH who went 195-1 in HS and I respectfully say this his HS career and how good he was to many place him as the best 171 wrestler ever, yes he lost 1 time to Ruth I believe Ruth lost nearly 20x in HS (once getting pinned after winning ironman) was also a 19 years old Senior @ Blair after an average career while in PA high schools (i believe 2 or 3 years and 1 @ Blair)........

If he is not even in your top 10 in OHIO than you are only including lower weights and maybe a few heavys.......chris changed where an entire state of wrestlers wrestled for 4 years in Ohio, nobody was scared of him, they just understood that if they wanted to win a State title they werent gonna do it at Chris's weight D3 or not!!   Many believe chris could have won a State tile @ 171 in middle school, most believe he could have placed since 6th grade and we are not talking about 90lbs , OH-IO people know their wrestling 

It's all good brother.  No one's saying Phillips sucked.  He was obviously very good.  You're only hitting resistance because you're not stopping there.  You're going beyond that, and saying he had a better high school career than virtually everyone else.  He's #2 on your all-time list right?  And apparently several other posters on this thread.  Fine, but that means you need to line up his career against every other top high schooler, and conclude that all these other guys are *worse* than him. 

I'll just pick three.

Why is Gable Steveson worse than him?  While in high school, Gable was unbeaten his last 4 years, won three age-group world titles, 4th in US Open and WTTs (beating multiple college AAs), multiple Fargo titles, won Junior Hodge. He then proved he was as good as advertised by making the NCAA finals the next year. 

Why is Kyle Snyder worse than him?  While in high school, Kyle was 179-0, only taken down once, countless Fargo titles, youngest ever to win a Jr World title, only exhibition loss was 6-3 to Russian 6x World/Olympic champ Gatsalov as an 18 year old senior.  He then proved he was as good as advertised by making the NCAA finals the next year and winning a senior world title at 19, the youngest ever.

Why is Marcus Blaze worse than him? An Ohio boy, he's still trucking, with 3 Ohio state titles and multiple Fargo stop signs, his last loss at Ironman in OT a couple years ago as a soph (like Phillips). But since then, last year he beat NCAA #1-ranked and returning runner-up Ramos at a college folkstyle tournament, then took 3rd at Olympic Trials and 2nd at Senior WTTs, beating NCAA champs Megaludis, Garrett and Gross, plus 4x NCAA runner up (and Sr. World silver) Fix, before narrowly falling to the defending world champ Arujau, plus a Jr World bronze (losing only to Sr World champ Ono).  That's all before his high school senior year.

So tell me, what's your case for why all three of these guys are *worse* than Chris Phillips?  What did Phillips do that dwarfs the accomplishments of these other guys?

[OH-IO]

2 hours ago, BAC said:

It's all good brother.  No one's saying Phillips sucked.  He was obviously very good.  You're only hitting resistance because you're not stopping there.  You're going beyond that, and saying he had a better high school career than virtually everyone else.  He's #2 on your all-time list right?  And apparently several other posters on this thread.  Fine, but that means you need to line up his career against every other top high schooler, and conclude that all these other guys are *worse* than him. 

I'll just pick three.

Why is Gable Steveson worse than him?  While in high school, Gable was unbeaten his last 4 years, won three age-group world titles, 4th in US Open and WTTs (beating multiple college AAs), multiple Fargo titles, won Junior Hodge. He then proved he was as good as advertised by making the NCAA finals the next year. 

Why is Kyle Snyder worse than him?  While in high school, Kyle was 179-0, only taken down once, countless Fargo titles, youngest ever to win a Jr World title, only exhibition loss was 6-3 to Russian 6x World/Olympic champ Gatsalov as an 18 year old senior.  He then proved he was as good as advertised by making the NCAA finals the next year and winning a senior world title at 19, the youngest ever.

Why is Marcus Blaze worse than him? An Ohio boy, he's still trucking, with 3 Ohio state titles and multiple Fargo stop signs, his last loss at Ironman in OT a couple years ago as a soph (like Phillips). But since then, last year he beat NCAA #1-ranked and returning runner-up Ramos at a college folkstyle tournament, then took 3rd at Olympic Trials and 2nd at Senior WTTs, beating NCAA champs Megaludis, Garrett and Gross, plus 4x NCAA runner up (and Sr. World silver) Fix, before narrowly falling to the defending world champ Arujau, plus a Jr World bronze (losing only to Sr World champ Ono).  That's all before his high school senior year.

So tell me, what's your case for why all three of these guys are *worse* than Chris Phillips?  What did Phillips do that dwarfs the accomplishments of these other guys?

BAC you know your wrestling my brother so nothing but repsect to you

 

Marcus Blaze is an easy one, lets come back to him when he finishes this year he will definitely be in my top 10

Kyle wel I would love to say as #1 he is from my State (lol) but only wrestled 3, basically there was nothing left for him at the HS level, but if he would have stayed and won another one it would have been very hard for me to keep him off of a top 3......personally I think Phillips should have choosen a similar path, won 3 OH titles and left for an OTC maybe the timing wasnt right or maybe he just loved being with his friends as I do mine!  Chris would have had a similar path with very similar results as Snyder IMO he really was that talented

 

Gable Steveson I do have him Top 5 I believe..... (may I ask you this who would be your #1 heavyweight Mocco, Steveson, Rowlands, Snyder or Cox if we did a best ever at each weight) if we did it this way well than the others could never be top 10 best ever simply because they were even number #1 at their own weight.......  in final the big boys have different skill sets needed to succeed in HS you got great horsepower and really good cardio your gonna win a title no doubt (eventually), you have those same assets in the lower and middle weights you be a solid wrestler, but your gonna need great hips.....a signature move or 2 or 3, you best understand how to feel the pressure from your opponent and learn when to counter, you must also understand how to CHAIN WRESTLE, win from the bottom and win from the top by riding, hand fighting is a must and level changes must happen, than you can expect to win a state title unless your in certain states where everyone understands this type of life, than you need a coach that scouts and understands his wrestlers, basically in the lower and middle weights you simply need so much more than great horsepower and really good cardio.....nothing bad nor nothing negative, its just a different skill set that is needed at the heavy weight than in the lower and midlle....on side note things have changed now a days the big boys need those qualities, just not so much in HS.......

Much respect and no ill feeling BAC you know your stuff and I appreciate you firing back, there are alot of talented people on this forum....MY RESPECT TO ALL, HOOAH

 

Edited February 13 by OH-IO

[OH-IO]

3 hours ago, Paul158 said:

Very good well thought out summary of high school wrestling. Bravo. There is a difference between wrestling certain states. Sometimes its a huge difference. Most of us know that. There is a difference between wrestling at lower weights when you are a freshman then wrestling in the middle or upper weights Most of us know that. It's a very rare freshman who is 14 and can dominate the middle and upper weights in Pa. and Ohio or New Jersey.

extremely rare my brother!.... its kind of like there is a major difference between being a millionaire and a billionaire, if money was in seconds a millionaires time would be up in 11 1/2 days, now a Billionaires times would be up in 31 years!  

[BAC]

9 hours ago, OH-IO said:

BAC you know your wrestling my brother so nothing but repsect to you

 

Marcus Blaze is an easy one, lets come back to him when he finishes this year he will definitely be in my top 10

Kyle wel I would love to say as #1 he is from my State (lol) but only wrestled 3, basically there was nothing left for him at the HS level, but if he would have stayed and won another one it would have been very hard for me to keep him off of a top 3......personally I think Phillips should have choosen a similar path, won 3 OH titles and left for an OTC maybe the timing wasnt right or maybe he just loved being with his friends as I do mine!  Chris would have had a similar path with very similar results as Snyder IMO he really was that talented

 

Gable Steveson I do have him Top 5 I believe..... (may I ask you this who would be your #1 heavyweight Mocco, Steveson, Rowlands, Snyder or Cox if we did a best ever at each weight) if we did it this way well than the others could never be top 10 best ever simply because they were even number #1 at their own weight.......  in final the big boys have different skill sets needed to succeed in HS you got great horsepower and really good cardio your gonna win a title no doubt (eventually), you have those same assets in the lower and middle weights you be a solid wrestler, but your gonna need great hips.....a signature move or 2 or 3, you best understand how to feel the pressure from your opponent and learn when to counter, you must also understand how to CHAIN WRESTLE, win from the bottom and win from the top by riding, hand fighting is a must and level changes must happen, than you can expect to win a state title unless your in certain states where everyone understands this type of life, than you need a coach that scouts and understands his wrestlers, basically in the lower and middle weights you simply need so much more than great horsepower and really good cardio.....nothing bad nor nothing negative, its just a different skill set that is needed at the heavy weight than in the lower and midlle....on side note things have changed now a days the big boys need those qualities, just not so much in HS.......

Much respect and no ill feeling BAC you know your stuff and I appreciate you firing back, there are alot of talented people on this forum....MY RESPECT TO ALL, HOOAH

 

My friend, the respect runs likewise, and I'm going to let you have the last word on this.  I'm pretty sure I've exceeded my aggregate word limit anyway.   

To answer your question, among high schoolers, I've got Gable tops at HWT, and Synder tops at the 215/220 weight class.  (As it happens, those are also my picks for senior-level GOATs at 125kg and 97kg, but they both get the high school award GOAT award too for their high school weights.)  Absolute monsters.

[scourge165]

On 2/13/2025 at 12:05 AM, OH-IO said:

with all do respect to BAC, to us and those like us, we all know Chris Phillips 195-1  IN HIGH SCHOOL

nothing about college whatso ever should be figured in, heck now-a-days we got guys wrestling 7 years into their college careers, heck you give me healthy knees and some quick-twitch fibers back and put me in the PSU wrestling room i might AA lol.....(redshirts, Olympic year, Covid year, medical, and dad left mom), heck even the transfer portal is something new to me...... 

yes corey did CATCH chris and pinned him @ FILA CADETS, chris was well ahead tho (remember when Senior Ruth got caught and pinned at the Beast by a Sophmore from MSJ in MD)...also dont forget Chris destroyed Corey Peltier Later @ Ironman 9-5 (all point from Chris letting him up) BAC I respect you my friend but there really is a different life in states such as PA, MI, IA, OH, NJ etc when it comes to wrestling, there are high school wrestlers from these states that dont make it to states that would go elsewhere and possibly win state titles, I also think it is crazy that you can be 19+ years of age and still able to play sports in HS ......I will say this i tried to spread the top 10 around a litlle sure we could just go to all the lower weight guys,  I was fair and respectful and really tried to give a portion to all weights not just the wrestlers who are 2 years ahead of others still wrestling in HS when they could actually be Soph's in college, i really cant imagine being 19 (close to 20) wrestling 13-14 yr old HIGH SCHOOL aged wrestlers and at a weight 100-150 (I did not hold that against anyone nor did I hold the fact that someone didnt wrestle outside his state which happens to be 1 of the best states for wrestling, this is the best HS wrestlers of all time and at 171 their was a kid from monroeville OH who went 195-1 in HS and I respectfully say this his HS career and how good he was to many place him as the best 171 wrestler ever, yes he lost 1 time to Ruth I believe Ruth lost nearly 20x in HS (once getting pinned after winning ironman) was also a 19 years old Senior @ Blair after an average career while in PA high schools (i believe 2 or 3 years and 1 @ Blair)........

If he is not even in your top 10 in OHIO than you are only including lower weights and maybe a few heavys.......chris changed where an entire state of wrestlers wrestled for 4 years in Ohio, nobody was scared of him, they just understood that if they wanted to win a State title they werent gonna do it at Chris's weight D3 or not!!   Many believe chris could have won a State tile @ 171 in middle school, most believe he could have placed since 6th grade and we are not talking about 90lbs , OH-IO people know their wrestling 

People are using Chris Phillips lack of a Collegiate career now to paint his HS success in a different light. 

He Wrestled the toughest schedules you can Wrestle. He went through the Ironman and the Beast all at 171 or above. 

And again, I hate the "why is this Wrestler WORSE" than him argument. 

Phillips accomplishments stand on their own. No need to knock anyone else down. 

I don't know if it's just people who forgot what Phillips was doing or they're going back and reading his accomplishments off a sheet missing the context from the time. 

There are some sites that can be great references to remind us of how incredible a FRESHMEN dominating the Nation at 171(or the best in the Nation) is. Phillips was the best Wrestler on that HS team...

 

[BAC]

6 hours ago, scourge165 said:

People are using Chris Phillips lack of a Collegiate career now to paint his HS success in a different light. 

He Wrestled the toughest schedules you can Wrestle. He went through the Ironman and the Beast all at 171 or above. 

And again, I hate the "why is this Wrestler WORSE" than him argument. 

Phillips accomplishments stand on their own. No need to knock anyone else down. 

I don't know if it's just people who forgot what Phillips was doing or they're going back and reading his accomplishments off a sheet missing the context from the time. 

There are some sites that can be great references to remind us of how incredible a FRESHMEN dominating the Nation at 171(or the best in the Nation) is. Phillips was the best Wrestler on that HS team...

 

If you don't like the "why is this Wrestler WORSE" than him argument, then stop saying Phillips is better than them.

If you were just saying "Chris Phillips was great," no one would argue.  He was great!  But you literally said "This is the best HS Wrestler. " You wrote that.

Don't say it if you can't back it up, or if you can't handle someone showing you why you are wrong.

[billyhoyle]

On 2/15/2025 at 8:04 AM, scourge165 said:

People are using Chris Phillips lack of a Collegiate career now to paint his HS success in a different light. 

He Wrestled the toughest schedules you can Wrestle. He went through the Ironman and the Beast all at 171 or above. 

And again, I hate the "why is this Wrestler WORSE" than him argument. 

Phillips accomplishments stand on their own. No need to knock anyone else down. 

I don't know if it's just people who forgot what Phillips was doing or they're going back and reading his accomplishments off a sheet missing the context from the time. 

There are some sites that can be great references to remind us of how incredible a FRESHMEN dominating the Nation at 171(or the best in the Nation) is. Phillips was the best Wrestler on that HS team...

 

If Phillips is one of the greatest high school wrestlers of all time, why was he not a top 5 recruit for his class? Why is his performance freshman year of high school pretty much his entire argument for being considered in the same realm as Kolat? Phillips is one of the greatest high school freshman wrestlers of all time. You can put his freshman year against pretty much anyone else.  Felipe Martinez as well.  But neither of them is even close to being overall one of the best HS wrestlers ever.  

[OH-IO]

Here is an new and improved version of my original.......BEST EVER PER WEIGHT CLASS (need a little flexibility gents 17 weight classes, now we can really hash it out, for the life of me i juggled 130, 135 & 140, someone with more wisdom figure that out professionally and with respect of course...do i put Kolat 135, do I put Fried @ 135 or do I put Taylor upto 135 and let you guys help me with 112, does Bono fit in their 130-140 in there?..... did the best I could and there aint no way am I gonna do this again next year or ever again, way too much talent coming thru the pipes!

 

103~ Stieber

112~ Taylor

119~ Lee

123~ TJ Jaworsky

125~ Suriano

130~ KOLAT  OW~ "BEST OF THE BEST"

135~  (.........) 

140~ Fried

145~ Nolf/Metcalf

148~ P. Smith

152~ Williams/D. Schlatter

160~ Marsteller/I. Martinez

165~ Hall/Jordan

171~ Phillips (you already knew gents)

189~ M. McIntosh/D. Hahn

215~ Snyder

Big Boys~ Mocco/Steveson

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by OH-IO