#SaveCSUWrestling...again

[666]

53 minutes ago, The Kid said:

That's my point. 

I will say that our elite wrestlers are  good as ever, obviously. 

But the sport as a whole is dying.

I don't what it to die, but that's my opinion. 

Wrestling has been around as long as the human race. I don't think it's going away. 

[BAC]

22 minutes ago, The Kid said:

That's my point. 

I will say that our elite wrestlers are  good as ever, obviously. 

But the sport as a whole is dying.

I don't what it to die, but that's my opinion. 

Kid,

With all due respect, you've got some seriously bad takes here, all throughout this thread.  You're entitled to your opinions, but the factual understandings on which they're based need some work.  Let's take a stab at it, shall we?

1. Boys wrestling isn't dying on the high school level.  Participation in high school wrestling is increasing -- including among boys.  This article from last year (here) shows an increase of 32,443 boys compared to the prior year, for a total of 291,874. Fold in the gains from the prior year, and there was a 25% gain compared to 2021-22, which is remarkable.  This is without mentioning the consistent gains of the girls, to 64,257, although my personal guess is they're mutually reinforcing.  The 291K figure is still an overall decrease from the 70s and 80s, including the all-time boys high of 356,131 in 1976 (see article here), but if the current growth rate continues, we'll be back there in a couple years.  (We're already there if you add the boys and girls numbers from 2023, but we're talking boys now.)  There's pockets where wrestling is struggling for demographic reasons (e.g. in rural areas, where schools have declining enrollment), but it's growing overall.

2.  Nor is it dying on the D1 level.  It's a concern I share, no doubt, and it's taken a beating over the past half-century, going from 155 D1 men's programs in 1975 to only 79 at the start of this year.  But look at the number closer, and you'll see that we've flatlined since around 2011, with a slight net gain in programs since then.  A Flo article (here) demonstrates this well, both in listing of actual programs added and dropped over the years, and in an accompanying graph. Yes, losing CSU blows, but every sport loses programs here and there, and not every lost program means "wrestling is dying."

3.  Earlier you refer to people "blaming" Title IX, as though it was a scapegoat.  While there's a grain of truth to that, there's no question Title IX had a dramatic impact -- or at least the DOE/OCR's three-prong proportionality-driven interpretation did.  It isn't rocket science:  when you demand equality from colleges whose teams skew male, and don't take disparities in interest into account, you have to either add women or cut men -- and adding costs money.  True, those who put all the blame on Title IX ignore the decline in high school participation at the time (see above), and the cuts weren't helped by ADs who overspend on football. But numerous programs were dropped expressly or in part for Title IX reasons, often to stave off pending or threatened lawsuits.  On the plus side, it's helped open the door to women's wrestling.  Overall this issue has been heavily politicized, and as such most literature on the topic is slanted, so if you have an overly strident view in one direction or the other, you should probably rethink it.  Some good reading here, here, here, here, here and here.

4.  Can we relax with the "warrior mindset" stuff, and how "soft" we are?  Yeah, we're not living in caves anymore using our bare hands to kill our meal each night like "alpha males," but as you can see above, wrestling is doing fine and actually is in the midst of a rebound. Maybe skip the next one or two or twenty Andrew Tate podcasts? Come on man. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

1 hour ago, The Kid said:

Random thoughts:

It's an indication that we don't live in a warrior mindset.

Let's face it, wrestling is hard even for the winners.

Our country is soft compared to past generations. It's why travel soccer has millions of kids.  It's easy and mom can get drunk at the Saturday morning game.

Are Notre Dame or Oregon contemplating the reinstatement of their once solid wrestling programs?  

How about Tennessee or Syracuse?

Maybe it's also market dynamics at work? Football, basketball, even soccer have pro leagues that pay well and draw big audiences. I'm not saying it's the only reason, or even right one since most athletes won't ever turn pro, but the "non-warrior mindset" sports you mentioned at least incentivize athletes and their families to put in their time and investment into those sports.

[MPhillips]

Neither here nor there but the news came one night after the team was recognized for having the highest GPA in the athletic dept...

[666]

16 hours ago, The Kid said:

First we blamed Title 9.

No we are blaming the NIL.

Our society is weak in terms of the commitment it requires to wrestle, let alone by an AA. 

Maybe, we can take a shot at synchronized swimming or gaming? 

That should definitely wake up the ADs to reinstate Notre Dame and Oregon wrestling. 

Screw ND and Oregon. They made their choice. 

[Idaho]

In 2015 when the program was dropped, it was brought back because students voted to increase their student fees to keep the sport:  "After CSU announced earlier this year it planned to eliminate wrestling, students voted to increase their fees so the Vikings' wrestling program could remain The vote will add about $30 a year to the bill of a full-time student this year, before increasing to $90 in another year. Students taking fewer than 9 credit hours won't have to pay the increase, just the previous fee."  The question is when did the school decide to absorb these  increases for wrestling into their general budget or athletic budget, forcing  the school to now drop? Was there ever a vote to take the fees back out of student fees that were raised for wrestling? I don't know what kind of followups  or changes that were made through the years, but after reading a couple of CSU fan posts on social media (which may or may not be accurate), it seems there is missing information. 

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2015/07/cleveland_state_student_fees_c_1.html

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/college/2015/04/cleveland_state_wrestling_team_1.html

[CHROMEBIRD]

12 minutes ago, Idaho said:

In 2015 when the program was dropped, it was brought back because students voted to increase their student fees to keep the sport:  "After CSU announced earlier this year it planned to eliminate wrestling, students voted to increase their fees so the Vikings' wrestling program could remain The vote will add about $30 a year to the bill of a full-time student this year, before increasing to $90 in another year. Students taking fewer than 9 credit hours won't have to pay the increase, just the previous fee."  The question is when did the school decide to absorb these  increases for wrestling into their general budget or athletic budget, forcing  the school to now drop? Was there ever a vote to take the fees back out of student fees that were raised for wrestling? I don't know what kind of followups  or changes that were made through the years, but after reading a couple of CSU fan posts on social media (which may or may not be accurate), it seems there is missing information. 

https://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/2015/07/cleveland_state_student_fees_c_1.html

https://www.cleveland.com/sports/college/2015/04/cleveland_state_wrestling_team_1.html

I'm also having a hard time with Lacrosse being added in 2016 and not getting cut. How is it possibly more popular than wrestling in NE Ohio?

[Floggingsully]

5 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

I'm also having a hard time with Lacrosse being added in 2016 and not getting cut. How is it possibly more popular than wrestling in NE Ohio?

Lacrosse brings in kids from out of state, who pay higher tuition.  It isn't about what's more popular locally.

[wrestle87]

Somebody needs to start a cleveland state girls wrestling team immediately

[BruceyB]

2 hours ago, The Kid said:

That's my point. 

I will say that our elite wrestlers are  good as ever, obviously. 

But the sport as a whole is dying.

I don't what it to die, but that's my opinion. 

You're just wrong. There are more boys wrestling in HS now than in 2000. There is now a girls division which has grown exponentially over the last 25 years. Just because you're friends kids didn't enjoy the sport doesn't mean that's a reflection of the overall state. I wrestled, and both of my younger brothers tried it and didn't like it. 

The sport as a whole is not dying. The sports future in college athletics, however, is concerning. 

[flyingcement]

24 minutes ago, Floggingsully said:

Lacrosse brings in kids from out of state, who pay higher tuition.  It isn't about what's more popular locally.

This is part of what's wrong in my opinion: the incentivization structure is broken.  Shouldn't a state school have some part of its mission to serve its local constituents who fund the place through taxes?

Edited Friday at 08:18 PM by flyingcement

[wrestle87]

https://www.csuohio.edu/sites/default/files/2024-11/fy24-budget-book-final-summary.pdf

https://www.csuohio.edu/sites/default/files/2024-11/csu-fy25-budget-book_0.pdf

https://www.csuohio.edu/sites/default/files/2024-11/fy25-budget-financials-summary_compressed_0.pdf

https://www.csuohio.edu/budget-financial-analysis

They give away so much to yield students, there's no way wrestling being cut has anything to do with money.

This, unfortunately, is where wrestling teams and wrestling coaches very regularly do a bad job of managing up.

I wish this was a class that gable, cael, ayres, and the brands would give to coaches around the country.  It makes such a difference in the health and wellbeing of programs nationally.  

Edited Friday at 08:17 PM by wrestle87

[Idaho]

17 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

hey give away so much to yield students, there's no way wrestling being cut has anything to do with money.

 

That's not what they are saying...

"CSU made the difficult decision to discontinue these sport programs at the conclusion of their respective seasons this academic year as part of a strategic effort, which began in 2023, to address budgetary shortfalls across the University.

18 minutes ago, wrestle87 said:

This, unfortunately, is where wrestling teams and wrestling coaches very regularly do a bad job of managing up.

I wish this was a class that gable, cael, ayres, and the brands would give to coaches around the country.  It makes such a difference in the health and wellbeing of programs nationally. 

Honest questions - How do you define "Manage up", why do you say that coaches regularly do a bad job ast it and why would you choose Gable, Cael, Ayers and Brands to teach this class? 

[1032004]

Would Logan Paul have any interest in making a donation?

[1032004]

49 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Would Logan Paul have any interest in making a donation?

Maybe Askren could get in contact with him…

[wrestle87]

3 hours ago, Idaho said:

That's not what they are saying...

"CSU made the difficult decision to discontinue these sport programs at the conclusion of their respective seasons this academic year as part of a strategic effort, which began in 2023, to address budgetary shortfalls across the University.

Honest questions - How do you define "Manage up", why do you say that coaches regularly do a bad job ast it and why would you choose Gable, Cael, Ayers and Brands to teach this class? 

My approach to a wrestling program is that they are the least costly programs you can have.  All you need is a room, a mat, and a coach who can drive a car and push a mop.  Many very successful programs have that and no more.  That is half a professor's salary.

Unfortunately, the next time an athletic department uses the word "strategically" and also tells the truth will be the first time.  That's just a managerial code word for "we felt like doing this, and weren't persuaded otherwise."  Wrestling is such an insanely low overhead sport, there's really no justification besides politics or just chasing arbitrary institutional metrics.

I'm not saying this to come across as cynical, but the realm of higher ed is particularly opaque and interpersonally political.  And the transition between "coach" and "director" is where employees make the transition from employee to what can be considered upper management, those that have meaningful input into making the sausage so to speak.

To put things in perspective, the school gives out just shy of $200 million a year in financial aid each year.  This is not a program that draws money in any way. 

From a broader perspective, if we look at the three key metrics of operation for a college/university, this is what Cleveland State is operating at. 

Tuition after aid - $16K
Admission Rate - 85%
Graduation Rate - 46%

These metrics aren't great, but they also aren't those of a school that is on it's way to getting edinboro'd.  

So long as you have a functioning training room, a wrestling program is free room and board and free publicity.  Especially in the state of Ohio.  

To answer your "managing up" question, it's about crafting and maintaining the relationship that your program has with its host school.  When you go back and look, those programs that are the strongest are those that have the active support of the institution they are attached to.

Across the board these programs are those where the coach has a strong relationship with the AD, and the rest of the administration.  Gable wrote about spending time with the Iowa AD while he was there, Cael actively discusses it, the Brands brothers also are very publicly active in making Iowa wrestling a name that people see associated with charity fundraisers every year.  Chris Ayres did and clearly does an amazing job cultivating relationships with admissions and athletic departments more broadly, he knows how to put on a show for his team, and he knows what's required to get good guys in.  There's a reason Princeton has seen a drop off since he left, and it's not because Dubuque is bad, it's because Ayres was excellent and managing the non-wrestling aspects of the program.  

This is where the stereotypical salty, snarly wrestling coach is so at odds with higher ed in general.  The personality we traditionally associate with a wrestling coach, at leas the old guard of coach, was a disgruntled semi-hermit who knew how to control and shape equally disgruntled student athletes into champions.  The sport has done a lot to improve that optic broadly, but there are still a ton of coaches who behave this way, and those sorts of personalities are anathema to the sort of politicing that is necessary for a program to thrive long-term in a higher ed environment.  

[CHROMEBIRD]

7 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

This, unfortunately, is where wrestling teams and wrestling coaches very regularly do a bad job of managing up.

I wish this was a class that gable, cael, ayres, and the brands would give to coaches around the country.  It makes such a difference in the health and wellbeing of programs nationally.  

Do you have any other examples? Seems like Gable, Cael, Brands (also John Smith) have/had good relationships with their ADs and schools because they win titles or are running wrestling programs with a storied history of success. And Stanford Athletics prioritizes Olympic sports and winning the Directors Cup, and Princeton and its peers have the whole Ivy Agreement thing so idk how much upward management was involved with Ayers. 

[wrestle87]

43 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

Do you have any other examples? Seems like Gable, Cael, Brands (also John Smith) have/had good relationships with their ADs and schools because they win titles or are running wrestling programs with a storied history of success. And Stanford Athletics prioritizes Olympic sports and winning the Directors Cup, and Princeton and its peers have the whole Ivy Agreement thing so idk how much upward management was involved with Ayers. 

Princeton was an absolute bottom barrel team before Ayres got there.  He built them up a great deal, and that legacy will (hopefully) continue on for a while.

In terms of other examples, hard to say.  I think it's pretty clear that the division of labor while Koll was at Cornell was very well managed, he had Grey, Hahn and later Dake to help with a lot of the in-room lifting, while he clearly did a very good job managing the alumni and administration relationship.  

Despite the way that some of his kids behaved this week, I would say simply based on presentation that Pendleton seems to be doing a decent job, basing this largely on the off-season interview he did about the team culture, and the way he presents during duals.  

Just occurred to me as I'm typing it, but another guy who handles his program and his situation very well is Scott Goodale.  Rutgers was not good when he took over, and he does a good job of developing local Jersey guys, but more importantly he's turned Rutgers wrestling into a flagship program for the University, and he's made wrestling matches fun to attend, and he fills the stands.  Even though they got smoked by Penn State tonight, the place was loud, and the fans care.  

20 years ago it was a coin flip as to whether a Rider or a Rutgers match would draw a bigger crowd, many times it would be Rider.

[Santos]

Harkey, Kelsie

 Tomaszewski, Alicja                                                                  Abounader, Domenic                                                                  Abramczyk, AT, Gabby                                                                  Adam, Renee                                                                  Artino, Kristina                                                                  Atencio, Isaac                                                                  Ba, Mo                                                                  Beekman Smith, Bianca                                                                  Beninghof, MS, AT, Richard                                                                  Bensimon Maharaj, Victoria                                                                  Benton, AT, PES, CES, Max                                                                  Bertrams, Kelly                                                                  Bilbrey, Tim                                                                  Bloomberg, Dr. Laura                                                                  Boyer, Dallas                                                                  Branstein, Max                                                                  Browne, Shak                                                                  Carlo, Maria                                                                  Collins, DPT, Kevin                                                                  Conlan, Sean                                                                  Devrient, Kevin                                                                  DiJulius, Johnni                                                                  Dunn, Bob                                                                  Etzkin, Brian                                                                  Evans, James                                                                  Evans, James                                                                  Fagin, Ava                                                                  Farrell, PJ                                                                  Garcia, Fred                                                                  German, Andy                                                                  Gory Harkey, Kelsie                                                                  Graham, DJ                                                                  Gromala, Don                                                                  Haecker, Eric                                                                  Harris, Lena                                                                  Hitchens, Ryan                                                                  Hoban, MD, Connor                                                                  Honaker, DO, Lindsay                                                                  Hudson, Jason                                                                  Ivancic, MAE, AT, Kelsey                                                                  Jenney, Spencer                                                                  Johnsen, Curt                                                                  Johnson, Kwanza                                                                  Kahn, Josh                                                                  Karliak, Danny                                                                  Kearney, Matt                                                                  Kielsmeier, Chris                                                                  Kleidman, Dr. Robert                                                                  Kyler, Amy                                                                  Lang, Mark                                                                  Lewis, Angie                                                                  Livermore, Jessica                                                                  Longmeier, Brandon                                                                  Ludwikowski, Erica                                                                  Maharaj, Visnu                                                                  Mangan, MS, AT, Brittany                                                                  Marks, Nolan                                                                  Mathis, Erik                                                                  McGillivray, Chalmers                                                                  Meglen, Toni                                                                  Moore, Josh                                                                  Moskowitz, Mason                                                                  Nation, Ieuan                                                                  Neville, Carrie                                                                  Oldham, Jennifer                                                                  Osborne, Maddie                                                                  Parker, Deshon                                                                  Payne, Steve                                                                  Polito, Frank                                                                  Pond, Erin                                                                  Richardson, Trent                                                                  Rivers, Ben                                                                  Robertson, Lily                                                                  Robinson, Daniyal                                                                  Romanella, Mike                                                                  Rosneck, MD, James                                                                  Sacco, PhD, Matthew                                                                  Sanniti, Meghan                                                                  Sappington, Mark                                                                  Scarcella, MD, Michael                                                                  Schaefer, MD, Marie                                                                  Sedlacek MFN, RDN, LD, Carly                                                                  Shunnar, Jay                                                                  Silva, David                                                                  Sokolowski, Jon                                                                  Sutton, Morgan                                                                  Taylor, Emily                                                                  Tilow, APRN, CNP, Emma                                                                  Tramutolo, MD, Jake                                                                  Tussing, Spencer                                                                  Ubiparipovic, Sinisa                                                                  Vincent, Andrew                                                                  Violette, Bo                                                                  Voss, Chuck                                                                  Weir, Steve                                                                  Wilson, Chenara                                                                  Wise, MS, AT, Jackie                                                                  Wojcik, Mike                                                                  Wysmierski, MS, AT, Sydney                                                                  Zerr, Hanna                                                                  Zoeckler, Shelby                                                      

 

KELSIEGORY HARKEY

 

• TITLE

   

  Director of Athletics

• PHONE

   

  687-4539

• EMAIL

   

  CSUDirectorOfAthletics@csuohio.edu

 

Kelsie Gory Harkey enters her first full year as Director of Athletics at Cleveland State University. She served as interim athletics director for six months before President Laura Bloomberg appointed her to the full-time athletics director position for the 2024-25 academic year. In this role, Gory Harkey oversees the day-to-day operations of the athletics department and is a member of President Bloomberg's cabinet and senior leadership team. She is responsible for supporting Cleveland State's 18 varsity sports, along with the recently added esports program, encompassing over 360 student-athletes in addition to coaches and support staff. 

Prior to her appointment, Gory Harkey served as Deputy Athletics Director and Senior Woman Administrator for four years. She worked closely with former Director of Athletics Scott Garrett and the athletics senior leadership on the strategic and day-to-day operations of Cleveland State's athletic program, including overseeing all of the department's internal units and functions including academics, business affairs, equipment, facilities, sports medicine,  strength and conditioning and student-athlete development. In addition, Gory Harkey worked with CSU’s Office of General Counsel to supervise the university’s athletics compliance program.  She has also served as a sport supervisor for a host of CSU athletic programs throughout her tenure. 

A proven leader with a background that includes experience as an athletics event manager at Ohio State and championship operations with the NCAA, Gory Harkey comes to Cleveland State from Johns Hopkins University having most recently served as assistant athletics director and senior woman administrator.

Gory Harkey joined Johns Hopkins as an assistant athletics director in 2014 and  was charged with operations oversight for 24 varsity sports, the implementation of student-athlete development initiatives for over 600 student-athletes as well as expanding the Blue Jays marketing and community outreach efforts.  Gory Harkey also recently served as Johns Hopkins’ point of contact for the 2019 NCAA Division I Women’s Lacrosse Championship, managing 15 full-time staff members and over 150 game day workers.

Over the last two years, Gory Harkey co-led the Blue Jays LEAD Committee, a program empowering student-athletes to actualize leadership abilities and inspire action in their communities. She designed and implemented over 25 hours of annual leadership workshops focused on a multitude of skills including emotional intelligence, effective communication and accountability.

Prior to joining Johns Hopkins, Gory Harkey was chosen for the highly selective NCAA Postgraduate Internship Program in 2013. At the NCAA, Gory Harkey worked with the championships and alliances offices and assisted NCAA staff with championship operations for Division I women’s volleyball, men’s ice hockey, men’s tennis, baseball, FCS football and National Collegiate Rifle.

Gory Harkey began her professional career as an event management coordinator at Ohio State University in 2010. During her three years in Columbus, she was the primary event manager for women’s volleyball, women’s gymnastics, women’s ice hockey, women’s golf, men’s gymnastics and men’s golf.

Gory Harkey has been involved in professional development throughout her career. She currently serves on the Board of Directors for the Collegiate Event and Facility Management Association (CEFMA) and is a member of the NCAA Division III senior woman administrator program.

Gory Harkey earned her undergraduate degree in business administration from Ohio State in 2013 and received her master’s degree in sports administration from Ohio in 2019. She resides in the Cleveland area with her husband Adam, and the two are set to welcome their first child in the coming weeks.