Why Even Bother with a Wrestling Season?

[GreatWhiteNorth]

1 hour ago, LJB said:

some embrace the suk and if you want to compete with people like that you better to...

it isn't about it being fun...

quite the opposite...

Nah, it's not about the suk, it's not about how hard it is, it's not about the sacrifice.

Plain and simple, it's about winning. When your hand gets raised, it makes it all OK. And that part is addictive.

(I've had this conversation many times with wrestling teammates over the years - competitive people like us, we love to win.)

[LJB]

3 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Nah, it's not about the suk, it's not about how hard it is, it's not about the sacrifice.

Plain and simple, it's about winning. When your hand gets raised, it makes it all OK. And that part is addictive.

(I've had this conversation many times with wrestling teammates over the years - competitive people like us, we love to win.)

i am sure that is all it is for some...

but damn sure not everyone...

and it doesn't matter because they all got to embrace it either way to get to the winning part...

which is pretty awesome...

[98lberEating2Lunches]

16 hours ago, scourge165 said:

How many of your friends did you think could make it through a Wrestling practice in HS? Aside from your Wrestling friends?

Back in the day, not many because most were geeks.  Thankfully, I never experienced weight cutting.  But I must say, I have never been averse to physical pain, so I may be in an outlier.

Where and when were you a HS wrestler?

I was in HS in the late 70s/early 80s in Western PA.  Things were pretty old school then, but I don't believe my Coach was focused on winning.  I think he was focused on developing young men using a sport he loved and was proficient at.

17 hours ago, scourge165 said:

So when I say tough, I mean, mentally, physically tough

Alas, the days of embracing toxic masculinity are soon to be completely vanquished in today's society.  For wrestling to survive, I believe it has to move well beyond toughness as its calling card.  I would suggest emphasizing qualities like self-discipline and resilience over toughness.

[scourge165]

18 hours ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Nah, it's not about the suk, it's not about how hard it is, it's not about the sacrifice.

Plain and simple, it's about winning. When your hand gets raised, it makes it all OK. And that part is addictive.

(I've had this conversation many times with wrestling teammates over the years - competitive people like us, we love to win.)

YES...it absolutely is. That's why we do it. That's why Spencer Lee can talk about how practice is "miserable" and then talk about how much he loves the sport. 

And I'm with you, I've had these conversations as well. At the end of the day, it's different, it's rewarding rather than fun. It's that euphoria when you accomplish a big goal and each win is rewarding.

I could play Football and I had fun even if we lost. It sucked in the end, but running the ball or going out and hitting someone, that was fun. And the practices, the 2-a-days in Football have always been a breeze for any Wrestler I've known.

Again, I really hope someone can find a way around all the parts of the sport that are necessary to win. 
I remember Wrestling Greco and we had to take our Partner and go up and down the room doing reverse lifts. Those were warmups. Those were 2:30 practices in a 90+ room in the summer. You can say I'm being a contrarian or whatever...cool. Tell me how you can get through that and make it "fun" like a baseball practice? You can play baseball, maybe get some extra work in going to the batting cages, but then go to Culvers, eat whatever you want, go home, play video games and wait until your next practice. If that's how you're going about Wrestling...you're probably not setting yourself up for success. 

 

It's just a fundamentally different thing. Maybe Cross Country is more similar. You push your body to extremes or marathon runners, I don't know. But I totally agree with your post.

[scourge165]

19 hours ago, LJB said:

i am sure that is all it is for some...

but damn sure not everyone...

and it doesn't matter because they all got to embrace it either way to get to the winning part...

which is pretty awesome...

I think it's pretty much the same thing. You're each saying the same. 

I don't think anyone likes the "suk" they just know it's part of the deal. If you want to be able to win, you've gotta out-work people. 

I remember going to bed and feeling like I hadn't done enough and I'd wake up at Midnight and get on the treadmill. I guess your "embracing the suck," in that sense, but I did it out of a desire to win(or a fear of losing...I really don't know which). 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

15 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

... I did it out of a desire to win(or a fear of losing...I really don't know which).

People can be highly competitive and yet not define themselves by wins or losses in a competition.  Part of 'having fun' is embracing competition without emphasis on the resulting W or L.

[scourge165]

1 minute ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

People can be highly competitive and yet not define themselves by wins or losses in a competition.  Part of 'having fun' is embracing competition without emphasis on the resulting W or L.

Ok...well...that's not me, and I suspect it's not most Wrestlers. That sounds like participation trophy type stuff. 

I can enjoy a practice in which I get my ass kicked, but I've never had fun losing a match. 

I mean...as I said, I can do so while playing Football. I could have fun in a game we loss. But when it's just me on the Mat, I never had fun losing. At the end of a National Tournament, I could feel a sense of accomplishment without having won, and that could be rewarding. 

[LJB]

some people have to put themselves on the line regardless of the outcome...

people are different...

i will never understand why this is so hard for most to understand...

some people plow fields and some people swing axes...

[98lberEating2Lunches]

1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

I never had fun losing.

Someone always wins, someone always loses, and life goes on.  Your coaches may have failed you.  Has nothing to do with 'participation trophies.'

[ionel]

5 minutes ago, LJB said:

some people plow fields and some people swing axes...

and some people do neither but wonder why there's no milk on the shelf at the grocery store ...

[LJB]

i was involved in a sport where buried our friends with some regularity...

wins and losses are not the be all end all...

[Formally140]

29 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Ok...well...that's not me, and I suspect it's not most Wrestlers. That sounds like participation trophy type stuff. 

I can enjoy a practice in which I get my ass kicked, but I've never had fun losing a match. 

I mean...as I said, I can do so while playing Football. I could have fun in a game we loss. But when it's just me on the Mat, I never had fun losing. At the end of a National Tournament, I could feel a sense of accomplishment without having won, and that could be rewarding. 

Alright meat head tough guy. Let’s see if we can break this down for you. I know it’s probably pointless since you react like a wet cat to the idea there is wrestling knowledge you wouldn’t know..

Of course losing isn’t fun. Of course winning helps. That doesn’t mean you can’t create an environment where working hard and training and improving is fun.. also providing kids a place where they belong and something to believe in also helps. Some quit regardless, but less than you’d think if you create the right environment. 

If you were “correct” about your attitude about this. I wouldn’t have a team or any retention.. I wouldn’t have had every returning wrestler, at minimum.. triple their wins from last year to this year. I wouldn’t have had the entire team fighting and arguing over who should get the most improved award to the point that I almost had fights between kids.. 

And I’m not self aggrandizing either. There’s plenty of coaches doing better than me doing the same thing. Especially because I don’t pattycake my schedule and throw out first year kids against high level competition rather than forfeit... and I’m not exactly the best at “sandwiching” my positive to negative comments… I’ve actually been told I’m too intense by some very intense big names. 

Of course winning helps keep kids. But maybe you should try to process the fact that what made wrestling fun for you isn’t the end all be all. and maybe you should realize not having your attitude also doesn’t mean that we’re giving participation trophies either 

[ionel]

53 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

Ok...well...that's not me, and I suspect it's not most Wrestlers. That sounds like participation trophy type stuff ...

 

3 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Alright meat head tough guy. Let’s see if we can break this down for you. I know it’s probably pointless ...

 

[Formally140]

Just now, ionel said:

 

You know what…

 

 

 

 

 

can’t really argue.

[scourge165]

11 minutes ago, Formally140 said:

Alright meat head tough guy. Let’s see if we can break this down for you. I know it’s probably pointless since you react like a wet cat to the idea there is wrestling knowledge you wouldn’t know..

Of course losing isn’t fun. Of course winning helps. That doesn’t mean you can’t create an environment where working hard and training and improving is fun.. also providing kids a place where they belong and something to believe in also helps. Some quit regardless, but less than you’d think if you create the right environment. 

If you were “correct” about your attitude about this. I wouldn’t have a team or any retention.. I wouldn’t have had every returning wrestler, at minimum.. triple their wins from last year to this year. I wouldn’t have had the entire team fighting and arguing over who should get the most improved award to the point that I almost had fights between kids.. 

And I’m not self aggrandizing either. There’s plenty of coaches doing better than me doing the same thing. Especially because I don’t pattycake my schedule and throw out first year kids against high level competition rather than forfeit... and I’m not exactly the best at “sandwiching” my positive to negative comments… I’ve actually been told I’m too intense by some very intense big names. 

Of course winning helps keep kids. But maybe you should try to process the fact that what made wrestling fun for you isn’t the end all be all. and maybe you should realize not having your attitude also doesn’t mean that we’re giving participation trophies either 

I'm really not sure exactly what your issue here is. I've had...minimal interaction with you on here and you seem like you're taking this very personally for some reason.

There are a lot of things you can do to build a great program...and it's great to hear you're doing that and you've got a lot of kids having success and improving.

Building a culture where Wrestling is successful is enormously important. As I said, my HS would have 70 kids out for the team because we had a good program. It was popular, community support, etc... Kids wanted to be a part of it. We had kids quit, but we'd still end up with ~50 or so because we were successful. Going to and winning tournaments or team state helped.

Improving and kids making big gains leads to them winning more.

Being a part of something larger can obviously get kids to buy in.

I started this by saying Wrestling was rewarding more than it was fun. You're accomplishing a goal or working toward one. I just said I could have fun in a practice where I got my ass kicked.

I thought we were talking about a College Wrestling season and making Wrestling a mainstream sport, but...in any event, kids generally stay engaged if they're having success. That can be part of a team or individually.

Congrats on your success and I apologize for whatever I've said that you've apparently taken to heart. 

I gotta get off and make Dinner and do some other shit, but I'll check back later.

 

[LJB]

just as a parable...

my oldest did not win one match his first 2-1/2 years wrestling... every weekend we would by him his own paper bracket... he would go out and get cradled up in 23 seconds... he would come back to the bleachers and count how many matches he needed to win to bring home a medal... then next match go get cradled up in 23 seconds...

every single weekend...

[Formally140]

28 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

I'm really not sure exactly what your issue here is. I've had...minimal interaction with you on here and you seem like you're taking this very personally for some reason.

There are a lot of things you can do to build a great program...and it's great to hear you're doing that and you've got a lot of kids having success and improving.

Building a culture where Wrestling is successful is enormously important. As I said, my HS would have 70 kids out for the team because we had a good program. It was popular, community support, etc... Kids wanted to be a part of it. We had kids quit, but we'd still end up with ~50 or so because we were successful. Going to and winning tournaments or team state helped.

Improving and kids making big gains leads to them winning more.

Being a part of something larger can obviously get kids to buy in.

I started this by saying Wrestling was rewarding more than it was fun. You're accomplishing a goal or working toward one. I just said I could have fun in a practice where I got my ass kicked.

I thought we were talking about a College Wrestling season and making Wrestling a mainstream sport, but...in any event, kids generally stay engaged if they're having success. That can be part of a team or individually.

Congrats on your success and I apologize for whatever I've said that you've apparently taken to heart. 

I gotta get off and make Dinner and do some other shit, but I'll check back later.

 

I’m not self aggrandizing. There’s plenty of people doing better than me. It’s why I don’t usually bring up my team in arguments like this because people love if you will just make it about that and ignore the actual point..
 

You’ve been insisting pretty vehemently that the only thing that the only thing that can make wrestling fun is winning and anything I else is either poppycock or participation trophies. And getting irritated at the suggestion not agreeing is just stupid. And doubling down. Don’t back off what you’ve been insisting on now that I actually gave you a response

[Formally140]

4 minutes ago, LJB said:

just as a parable...

my oldest did not win one match his first 2-1/2 years wrestling... every weekend we would by him his own paper bracket... he would go out and get cradled up in 23 seconds... he would come back to the bleachers and count how many matches he needed to win to bring home a medal... then next match go get cradled up in 23 seconds...

every single weekend...

But don’t you know it’s impossible to make wrestling fun if you aren’t winning all the time????

[LJB]

apparently, i did not get the memo...

[LJB]

watching the re-edited version of rocky IV right now...

stallone went back and re-edited the film during the boogie bug days as a 70+ year old man...

it is topical to the current discussion and well worth the watch...

 

[GreatWhiteNorth]

3 hours ago, 98lberEating2Lunches said:

People can be highly competitive and yet not define themselves by wins or losses in a competition.  Part of 'having fun' is embracing competition without emphasis on the resulting W or L.

Not sure where this came from exactly, doesn't seem like it fits with the previous conversation. But yes - that's absolutely true.

Embracing competition is exactly what we wrestle for. But that does NOT make losing any fun - losing always sucks. A couple L's followed by W and it's still a W - and that W makes the wrestling life keep going. Those that compete and wrestle with nothing but L's - they almost always bail. (The rare ones that stay, I'm not sure how they are wired - certainly differently. There aren't that many of them.)

[GreatWhiteNorth]

3 hours ago, LJB said:

i was involved in a sport where buried our friends with some regularity...

wins and losses are not the be all end all...

Sounds like adrenalin chasing to me. In our youth we do crazy things that risk life and limb for no really good reason. I know plenty of guys who perished in a similar pursuit - and their mothers or fathers found it less than worthwhile.

[LJB]

1 minute ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Sounds like adrenalin chasing to me. In our youth we do crazy things that risk life and limb for no really good reason. I know plenty of guys who perished in a similar pursuit - and their mothers or fathers found it less than worthwhile.

sure it would to a normal...

but it had nothing to do with that...

in fact quite the opposite...

you wouldn't understand at all...

i was racing till i was 40...

the younger kid raced from 5 till about 11... wrestle on saturday and race on sunday was every weekend...

we still will hit the track for a play day when we can...

white picket fences and manicured lawns don't mean shit to us...

that is a slow death and there is nothing worse than that...

[LJB]

13 minutes ago, GreatWhiteNorth said:

Not sure where this came from exactly, doesn't seem like it fits with the previous conversation. But yes - that's absolutely true.

Embracing competition is exactly what we wrestle for. But that does NOT make losing any fun - losing always sucks. A couple L's followed by W and it's still a W - and that W makes the wrestling life keep going. Those that compete and wrestle with nothing but L's - they almost always bail. (The rare ones that stay, I'm not sure how they are wired - certainly differently. There aren't that many of them.)

it fits perfectly with the discussion you just can not comprehend it...

that does not make you unique...

[GreatWhiteNorth]

2 hours ago, LJB said:

just as a parable...

my oldest did not win one match his first 2-1/2 years wrestling... every weekend we would by him his own paper bracket... he would go out and get cradled up in 23 seconds... he would come back to the bleachers and count how many matches he needed to win to bring home a medal... then next match go get cradled up in 23 seconds...

every single weekend...

Just like the movie "Rudy" - having a goal, committing to it, and not letting setbacks stop you... until you finally win. That makes it all worthwhile.

Somehow my earlier message got twisted up. It's the winning part that makes it all worth it. You don't wrestle because you enjoy cutting weight, enjoy the miserable practices, or enjoy losing. Those things are the price you pay to be able to compete to win.

If you win or lose, isn't the point. It's about believing you can win and working your butt off to do it - that's what makes wrestling what it is.