jross Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 (edited) Given that our life experiences differ, our interpretations of words for high-order abstractions differ, and related discussion is meaningless. You will receive ten different answers from ten different people about what pictures come to mind when they hear the terms wokeism, fascism, capitalism, liberty, idealism, and so on. This explains why what we hear is what we prefer to hear, which is that the other is an imbecile, a malcontent, an enemy to the country, and otherwise no good person. Time is saved to reach meaningful conversations on high-order abstractions by starting with things to which one can point, simple things with simple words, ascending the abstraction ladder gingerly, and pausing for frequent checks. The Tyranny of Words was a Christmas present this year. I have read half the book and find it impressive how relevant the material is for discussion today. There are more than two movies playing simultaneously in the same theatre. Edited December 26, 2022 by jross topic word spelling 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPhillips Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 41 minutes ago, jross said: You will receive ten different answers from ten different people about what pictures come to mind when they hear the terms... I thought it was, 'A picture is worth a thousand words?' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerniePragle Posted December 26, 2022 Share Posted December 26, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, jross said: Given that our life experiences differ, our interpretations of words for high-order abstractions differ, and related discussion is meaningless. You will receive ten different answers from ten different people about what pictures come to mind when they hear the terms wokeism, fascism, capitalism, liberty, idealism, and so on. This explains why what we hear is what we prefer to hear, which is that the other is an imbecile, a malcontent, an enemy to the country, and otherwise no good person. Time is saved to reach meaningful conversations on high-order abstractions by starting with things to which one can point, simple things with simple words, ascending the abstraction ladder gingerly, and pausing for frequent checks. The Tyranny of Words was a Christmas present this year. I have read half the book and find it impressive how relevant the material is for discussion today. There are more than two movies playing simultaneously in the same theatre. "You are all misleading one another, and are yourselves deceived. The sun does not go round the earth, but the earth goes round the sun, revolving as it goes, and turning towards the sun in the course of each twenty-four hours, not only Japan, and the Philippines, and Sumatra where we now are, but Africa, and Europe, and America, and many lands besides. The sun does not shine for some one mountain, or for some one island, or for some one sea, nor even for one earth alone, but for other planets as well as our earth. If you would only look up at the heavens, instead of at the ground beneath your own feet, you might all understand this, and would then no longer suppose that the sun shines for you, or for your country alone." — Leo Tolstoy Eleven Stories Edited December 26, 2022 by BerniePragle 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 28, 2022 Author Share Posted December 28, 2022 My wife asked yesterday what this book was about. Me: "The food we eat will rot our teeth." Her: "You are an idiot." Me: "What picture comes to mind when you think about food?" Her: "Turkey. Thanksgiving Smoked Turkey." Me: "You idiot. I was thinking about freshly baked German chocolate cake with pecan icing, cookies, and other desserts." Her: "Dessert is not food." Me: "That is a harmless example of The Tyranny of Words." Her: "Hey kids. What picture comes to mind when you think about food?" [trying to make the case against dessert as food ] We miscommunicate when using abstract words like "food." The audience and speaker have different interpretations and cannot understand each other. We should be on guard when marketing, news, and politics speak abstractly. The conversation is meaningless when we cannot identify the specific object referred to. We should select words for accurate, specific, complete, and readily understood communication. Another Tyranny of Words example can be found in the Monty Python "Holy Grail" film to determine "the lady is a witch!" So logically... therefore... a witch. We shall use the largest scales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ban Basketball Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 Sounds a lot like what we try to determine meaning among groups through ethnographic research. Owner of over two decades of the most dangerous words on the internet! In fact, during the short life of this forum, me's culture has been cancelled three times on this very site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mspart Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 On 12/26/2022 at 12:31 PM, BerniePragle said: "You are all misleading one another, and are yourselves deceived. The sun does not go round the earth, but the earth goes round the sun, revolving as it goes, and turning towards the sun in the course of each twenty-four hours, not only Japan, and the Philippines, and Sumatra where we now are, but Africa, and Europe, and America, and many lands besides. The sun does not shine for some one mountain, or for some one island, or for some one sea, nor even for one earth alone, but for other planets as well as our earth. If you would only look up at the heavens, instead of at the ground beneath your own feet, you might all understand this, and would then no longer suppose that the sun shines for you, or for your country alone." — Leo Tolstoy Eleven Stories Leo Tolstoy was never in Seattle in winter. The sun never shines here. mspart 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 28, 2022 Author Share Posted December 28, 2022 1 hour ago, Ban Basketball said: Sounds a lot like what we try to determine meaning among groups through ethnographic research. The tyranny of words illustrates miscommunication across Primitives Pioneers Logicians Philosophers Economists Scientists Mathematicians Judges Statesmen One can find the book online at https://archive.org/stream/B-001-003-912/The-Tyranny-of-Words_djvu.txt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BerniePragle Posted December 28, 2022 Share Posted December 28, 2022 3 hours ago, mspart said: Leo Tolstoy was never in Seattle in winter. The sun never shines here. mspart Lol. Central Russia isn't exactly Aruba in winter either. He had 13+ kids, so apparently he found some indoor activities to his liking. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted December 29, 2022 Author Share Posted December 29, 2022 Can you spot the abstractions in this? Quote President Volodymyr Zelensky’s White House visit Wednesday will symbolically bolster America’s role as the arsenal of democracy in the bitter war for Ukraine’s survival and send a stunning public rebuke to Russian President Vladimir Putin. https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/21/politics/us-visit-zelensky-analysis Someone trained in word semantics will recognize a bunch of blabs like this Quote President Volodymyr Zelensky’s White House visit Wednesday will symbolically bolster blab role as the blab of blab in the bitter blab for blab blab and send a stunning blab blab to Russian President Vladimir Putin. Which America are we talking about? Government? Citizens? What is meant by arsenal? What is the definition of democracy here? What is meant by Ukraine's survival? Who is the public, and how is the visit meant to be a rebuke? These are nonsense words that drive emotion. What objects/things/referents does each abstract concept apply to? How can the average reader understand what the author wants to say? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plasmodium Posted December 30, 2022 Share Posted December 30, 2022 4 hours ago, jross said: Can you spot the abstractions in this? Someone trained in word semantics will recognize a bunch of blabs like this Which America are we talking about? Government? Citizens? What is meant by arsenal? What is the definition of democracy here? What is meant by Ukraine's survival? Who is the public, and how is the visit meant to be a rebuke? These are nonsense words that drive emotion. What objects/things/referents does each abstract concept apply to? How can the average reader understand what the author wants to say? I'll answer your questions. The military industrial complex. Expensive military equipment that kills people and destroys other expensive military equipment. The electoral college, faithless electors, gerrymandering and a supreme court tightly coupled to a single political party. Ukraine retaining the same territory Russia decided it should have more than thirty years ago. The public is an open, uncommunicated message. It is a rebuke because Putin expects VZ to butter him up and instead he is openly humiliating him by buttering up to Biden. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jross Posted January 3, 2023 Author Share Posted January 3, 2023 You blab blabs who never lived one day under nuclear threat can now reflect blab your blab blab. You made quite a blab blab to blab the blab from blab blab tweets. Sir, this is not a church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psikeyhackr Posted January 30, 2023 Share Posted January 30, 2023 (edited) No mention of Science and Sanity by Alfred Korzybski. Chase mentioned him in The Tyranny of Words. Robert Heinlein got interested in General Semantics which is how Korzybski referred to his ideas about words, psychology and science. In The Moon is a Harsh Mistress Heinlein mentioned LOGLAN, Logical Language several times. I struggled through Science and Sanity in my 20s. Tyranny of Words is much better. Edited January 30, 2023 by psikeyhackr add sentence 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psikeyhackr Posted February 4, 2023 Share Posted February 4, 2023 https://rawsemantics.home.blog/2020/08/28/tyranny-of-words/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronnie Ramirez Walnut, California Class of 2025 Committed to Oklahoma State Projected Weight: 125, 133
Landon Robideau St. Michael-Albertville, Minnesota Class of 2025 Committed to Oklahoma State Projected Weight: 149, 157
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