u20 men's freestyle path to the best team to date

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Who waz Lockett's coach?  Lewisnski?  He spent more time on his knees in the 2nd period doing nothing than Monica did in Clinton's 2nd term.

I know there is a joke in there, but if you're genuinely curious, this is his coach. Coach Zo.

 

Edited September 9 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[de4856]

What a performance, what an absolute medal haul from our MFS team. Congrats to all. 
 

[Truzzcat]

overall take aways I thought everyone looked great. Medals shook out relatively how I predicted I knew the kid from Japan was good at 61kg but I was not aware he won their senior nationals in December and made the finals at 65kg to qualify for the olympics against Kiyooka. Overall I think the guys that impressed me the most did not even win gold. Keuter did better than any american that has wrestled Masoumi which includes Parris and Feldman. Blaze kind of dismantled Abbasov who is a 2x euro champ and 3x finalist and had previously beaten Davino 5-0. Barr was able to go 6 minutes with a russian nats champ who beat the world champ from last year in the finals. Whats potentially most impressive about this team is that I believe 7 of our 10 guys still have at least 1 year of junior eligibility left and most have 2. As far as the other nations go when Japan has someone who is good they seem to be really really really good. Its interesting to me how they either seem to win gold or not place. Russia is still very good but we really seem to have an edge over them at the age levels at least over the last few years and I think that is a great sign moving forward.

side bar I saw Bassett catching some heat for his semi loss. He wrestles at an insane pace and definitely lets guys get in on his legs. However he just won bronze in his first juniors and has two years left, if he were anyone else people would be talking about how amazing an accomplishment that is. I do think he will struggle a bit with very technical wrestlers who finish quickly at the highest level but if guys don't build a substantial lead on him early they are going to get chased down and he's going to get more physically mature which is only going to help his style.

[nhs67]

11 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I know there is a joke in there, but if you're genuinely curious, this is his coach. Coach Zo.

 

I wasn't curious.

It pisses me off to no end when guys that have a serious amount of talent such as him (and Focus) play around on their knees.  When they don't actually do anything with it, it is blatant stalling and cringe.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

43 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

I wasn't curious.

It pisses me off to no end when guys that have a serious amount of talent such as him (and Focus) play around on their knees.  When they don't actually do anything with it, it is blatant stalling and cringe.

And I thought that was regarded as "negative wrestling" by UWW?

[maligned]

1 hour ago, Truzzcat said:

overall take aways I thought everyone looked great. Medals shook out relatively how I predicted I knew the kid from Japan was good at 61kg but I was not aware he won their senior nationals in December and made the finals at 65kg to qualify for the olympics against Kiyooka. Overall I think the guys that impressed me the most did not even win gold. Keuter did better than any american that has wrestled Masoumi which includes Parris and Feldman. Blaze kind of dismantled Abbasov who is a 2x euro champ and 3x finalist and had previously beaten Davino 5-0. Barr was able to go 6 minutes with a russian nats champ who beat the world champ from last year in the finals. Whats potentially most impressive about this team is that I believe 7 of our 10 guys still have at least 1 year of junior eligibility left and most have 2. As far as the other nations go when Japan has someone who is good they seem to be really really really good. Its interesting to me how they either seem to win gold or not place. Russia is still very good but we really seem to have an edge over them at the age levels at least over the last few years and I think that is a great sign moving forward.

side bar I saw Bassett catching some heat for his semi loss. He wrestles at an insane pace and definitely lets guys get in on his legs. However he just won bronze in his first juniors and has two years left, if he were anyone else people would be talking about how amazing an accomplishment that is. I do think he will struggle a bit with very technical wrestlers who finish quickly at the highest level but if guys don't build a substantial lead on him early they are going to get chased down and he's going to get more physically mature which is only going to help his style.

The Japan thing isn't a mystery.

They have 2 medals in 150+ tries since 1984 over 74kg.

Only 6 freestyle men in 650+ medals over 74kg since 1984 were from documented smaller stature Asian wrestling nations (i.e. Mongolia, China, Japan, India, N/S Korea).

At U20s, Japan took 3rd place as a team with only 6 points from 5 weights above 74kg. Similar performance to their 3-man 2nd place finish at the Olympics.

 

Edited September 9 by maligned

[maligned]

10 hours ago, de4856 said:

What a performance, what an absolute medal haul from our MFS team. Congrats to all. 
 

I agree with this, but I would ask the question:

Which is more satisfying?

10 Top 5, 9 medals, 1 gold

8 Top 5, 7 medals, 3 gold

We're very happy, but Iran aren't sulking much either. I admit I'm a little jealous of their 3 golds despite our hardware.

 

[Truzzcat]

59 minutes ago, maligned said:

The Japan thing isn't a mystery.

They have 2 medals in 150+ tries since 1984 over 74kg.

Only 6 freestyle men in 650+ medals over 74kg since 1984 were from documented smaller stature Asian wrestling nations (i.e. Mongolia, China, Japan, India, N/S Korea).

At U20s, Japan took 3rd place as a team with only 6 points from 5 weights above 74kg. Similar performance to their 3-man 2nd place finish at the Olympics.

 

I was more so inquiring as to why that is. How they are able to develop such elite talent at the lighter weights but really nothing at all in the upper weights. Unless it literally just comes down to them not having a large enough population of heavier people.

[Truzzcat]

27 minutes ago, maligned said:

I agree with this, but I would ask the question:

Which is more satisfying?

10 Top 5, 9 medals, 1 gold

8 Top 5, 7 medals, 3 gold

We're very happy, but Iran aren't sulking much either. I admit I'm a little jealous of their 3 golds despite our hardware.

 

given the age of our team I lean the top because I think the gold will come in the next two years. If our team was all 20-year-olds I would pick Iran's medal count. The kid from Iran at 65 kg felt like a spitting image of amouzad.

[nhs67]

2 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

And I thought that was regarded as "negative wrestling" by UWW?

It is (was?).  Focus was dinged for it by USAW a few years back several times.  It might be a difference between USAW and UWW, though?

[maligned]

2 hours ago, Truzzcat said:

I was more so inquiring as to why that is. How they are able to develop such elite talent at the lighter weights but really nothing at all in the upper weights. Unless it literally just comes down to them not having a large enough population of heavier people.

Exactly. It's just that. Even in women's, where they are more skilled compared to the rest of the competition--and where the weights don't go comparatively nearly as high--they've historically won 45% of gold medals available at 65kg and below and only 22% in the upper weights. 

In weightlifting, where China is so dominant worldwide, they just this year won their first men's Olympic medal higher than 81kg EVER. There just simply isn't the volume of taller, muscle-dense, naturally bone-dense, athletic individuals in these documented smaller stature Asian nations.

[de4856]

3 hours ago, maligned said:

13 hours ago, de4856 said:

 

I agree with this, but I would ask the question:

Which is more satisfying?

10 Top 5, 9 medals, 1 gold

8 Top 5, 7 medals, 3 gold

We're very happy, but Iran aren't sulking much either. I admit I'm a little jealous of their 3 golds despite our hardware.

Absolutely valid question. But my initial thought is that 9 of our 10 guys came home with a medal, maybe not the color of medal they wanted, but it does show what they achieved, and it is an accolade that they will have for the rest of their lives. I thought about getting into the weeds about how some particular matches went, but I figured what was the point, so I just wanted to congratulate our wrestlers, staff, and everyone else who contributed to a job well done. 

[maligned]

Just now, de4856 said:

Absolutely valid question. But my initial thought is that 9 of our 10 guys came home with a medal, maybe not the color of medal they wanted, but it does show what they achieved, and it is an accolade that they will have for the rest of their lives. I thought about getting into the weeds about how some particular matches went, but I figured what was the point, so I just wanted to congratulate our wrestlers, staff, and everyone else who contributed to a job well done. 

Agreed, 100%. Sometimes we can get too caught up in future implications. They should definitely take pride in earning some hardware.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

I am not a Flo hater, but on yesterday's episode they were seriously debating as to whether Duke should have gotten 5 after hitting a thrown after action had been blown dead after a stepout.  The stepout had already occurred, the action changed.  The whistle blew.  Then he hit the throw.

I would have liked to have seen him get 5, but the right call was made.

[MPhillips]

23 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

they were seriously debating

I watched it but I don't recall any serious debate? Perhaps I just took it differently...

EDIT: Although we had different thoughts on Willie and Basch regarding DT and another thread this morning I believe.

Edited September 10 by MPhillips

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

19 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

I watched it but I don't recall any serious debate? Perhaps I just took it differently...

EDIT: Although we had different thoughts on Willie and Basch regarding DT and another thread this morning I believe.

You're right. "Serious" was probably me unintentionally exaggerating.  CP basically argued with himself and couldn't understand why Duke wasn't allowed to initiate a new action when they had already clearly stepped out of bounds (and the whistle blown).  Apparently he thinks you can (or should be able to) try to score AFTER a stepout has occurred.  How many techniques does he think you should be able to try out of bounds?

I know CP is not held in high regard as a wrestling mind, but he usually doesn't bother me.  I was very surprised to hear him not being able to understand that rule. (I had posted on it last week)

Maybe this is the referee in me talking...

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

25 minutes ago, MPhillips said:

EDIT: Although we had different thoughts on Willie and Basch regarding DT and another thread this morning I believe.

I think you were 100%  right about Basch not thinking DT was a possibility for WTT.  I think Basch talked to some people after the podcast that changed his mind.

[Truzzcat]

I have been deep diving on Ono just because I thought he was the OW of u20's he won the dogu this year teching uulu 11-0 who was last years world bronze at 61kg and beating atri 4-0 who was silver in 2022. I am not saying his match with Blaze was competitive but this is a guy that could legit win worlds this year and Blaze was able to stay on the mat with him. Really puts into perspective that Blaze could be senior world level right now and was wrestling 121 not even a full year ago.

[Eagle26]

On 9/10/2024 at 12:50 PM, Truzzcat said:

I have been deep diving on Ono just because I thought he was the OW of u20's he won the dogu this year teching uulu 11-0 who was last years world bronze at 61kg and beating atri 4-0 who was silver in 2022. I am not saying his match with Blaze was competitive but this is a guy that could legit win worlds this year and Blaze was able to stay on the mat with him. Really puts into perspective that Blaze could be senior world level right now and was wrestling 121 not even a full year ago.

I didn’t watch U20s, but after Blazes performance this weekend, I came back  here thinking who the heck would’ve beaten him at U20s that he “only” got bronze?! Apparently the dude is pretty good lol

[maligned]

12 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I didn’t watch U20s, but after Blazes performance this weekend, I came back  here thinking who the heck would’ve beaten him at U20s that he “only” got bronze?! Apparently the dude is pretty good lol

Japan are becoming 1980s/1990s Russia below 70kg. They are the first name you look for on the bracket. They're getting close to our and Russia's level at 70 and 74kg also, as evidenced by the waxing Dake took at the Olympics. 

[Truzzcat]

4 minutes ago, maligned said:

Japan are becoming 1980s/1990s Russia below 70kg. They are the first name you look for on the bracket. They're getting close to our and Russia's level at 70 and 74kg also, as evidenced by the waxing Dake took at the Olympics. 

they don't break position, seem to have very very explosive athlete's and transition from takedown to turn better than anyone in the world. Pretty good recipe for success. It's unfortunate that nishuichi and Ono will probably be the same weight for their careers, because I think they are the two best young guys in the world aside from Blaze right now.