Post Olympics thoughts

[wrestle87]

For the men’s side, it’s obvious there are elite levels to international wrestling, and we simply aren’t on them.  It has been a long time since we looked that one dimensional and unmotivated.  

It also clearly was a US team thing, seabass looked amazing, and Myles Amine brought pressure with no quit.

[Caveira]

3 hours ago, The Kid said:

It's outdated and boring, even compared to greco.

Kind of hard to take that comment seriously.  

[Lleynor]

On 8/9/2024 at 4:20 PM, alliseeisgold said:

First I didn't notice anymore palpable excitement or feel watching it from regular worlds. I was told the Olympics was different ? I couldn't tell. If anything it looked more watered down and worse then worlds without Russia. 

Second -  0 golds is not an abject failure due to simply no golds. (Without Russia). It's not fair to criticize coaches or competitors based solely on wins and losses as it is the manner in which they win or lose. Example Spencer Lee and brands. That's a GREAT effort in a loss and silver medal. Another example is Serbia basketball vs USA. 

It is an abject failure tho in the case of mason parris. In the case of Aaron brooks. And Kyle dake tho takatani may have just been on a heater. When you get praised beyond belief for winning you DESERVE the likewise when you don't win. Insert cael Sanderson. Insert Bill zadick. Insert USA training system. 

When we praise the rtc system based on results it must be re examined and thought if this is the best method when results turn to losses instead of wins (without Russia).

3rd - imagine if Spencer Lee went full throttle into freestyle after winning junior worlds instead of going to folk ? How many senior worlds would he have ?...Gilman looked like the little engine that could. Played above his talent. Lee looks like a 5 star. 

4th thinking USA could get a medal at every weight and multiple golds was completely over the top. Especially for guys like brooks who deserved to lose to Valencia and hasnt dominated opponents internationally. And a guy like parris who is not near as consistent as gwiz was. The best years have been when we have guarded optimism with a chip on the shoulder and something to prove to the world. The lack of Russia and recent success may have taken it away. Came in on a high horse. 

5th greco gets a bad wrap. Watching some of those middleweights was sheer athletic excellence on display. The Bulgarian who won gold in greco has insane hips. Way more action then I've ever seen in greco. Such a shame USA sucks in this sport. That Bulgarian may be one of the best pfp wrestlers overall basing this on one match and no other background info.

6th We know Snyder isn't winning gold. Book it. He's far more average then elite. Bad move turning on his boy dlagnov. 

7th cael is a GREAT folk coach. Free - overrated. 

The lack of tactical awareness and training displayed by brooks and cael after it happened to him with Gilman will be one for the record books and should be one of the first things brought up when discussing cael Sanderson for the eternity of time. It's on his record. 

No idea what zadick does. The system feels broken. 

 

Everyone belittled this post, but it aged like a fine wine. Sadly, it was spot on. 

Outside of 57 and possibly 86, I hope we get new reps everywhere.

Never in my wildest dreams would I thought that I would be praising our Women over our Men. 

[Scouts Honor]

4 hours ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Interesting to note: I’m pretty sure our men’s program is a bunch of individuals who train on their own with their own clubs and this continues at their training camps, with almost completely individual practices probably run by their private coaches and zadick in a ceo role (which I don’t have a problem with). 
 

From what I’ve heard, our women have somewhat individualized practices and coaching but much more is done with them as a group with Steiner or others running large portions of practice or camp for the team as a whole. 
 

This may be an oversimplification, but it is my understanding. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong , but it’s the impression I got from a Steiner interview. 

i would agree with this... but is this a problem? 

it allows people to train where there is support... emotional, financial, familial

[Scouts Honor]

i remember in the old days... i would bring guys in to do camps.

and every break, they were on the phone, arranging their next workout partner and booking flights to go work out with them

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

8 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

i would agree with this... but is this a problem? 

it allows people to train where there is support... emotional, financial, familial

None. But I’m talking about when they get together in camp. It’s more like six separate practices. 
 

The women have way more training as a team from my understanding. 

[Scouts Honor]

oh so even when they are training together they aren't training together

 

that does seem weird 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

32 minutes ago, Lleynor said:

Everyone belittled this post, but it aged like a fine wine. Sadly, it was spot on. 

Outside of 57 and possibly 86, I hope we get new reps everywhere.

Never in my wildest dreams would I thought that I would be praising our Women over our Men. 

Aged like fine wine? It was made less than 48 hours ago, after the wrestling was 75% complete. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

1 minute ago, Scouts Honor said:

oh so even when they are training together they aren't training together

 

that does seem weird 

Yes, that’s my understanding. Everyone goes off to their own corner of a mat and does their own thing with their own partners and coaches. At least way more than the women. 

[Scouts Honor]

in fairness

everyone has different styles... everyone has different styles to prepare for.

but i agree, isn't much of a team atmosphere.

we dont have the money to run a true team and training camp like the russians probably did.

i would think we used to run a camp like that.. but was it really successful? i mean when gable ran it... 

i can remember some stories about gable working them... and guys were like ... what the... is this...

 

I wonder what japan has in place

[1032004]

2 hours ago, wrestle87 said:

For the men’s side, it’s obvious there are elite levels to international wrestling, and we simply aren’t on them.  It has been a long time since we looked that one dimensional and unmotivated.  

It also clearly was a US team thing, seabass looked amazing, and Myles Amine brought pressure with no quit.

Lol c’mon.  We didn’t have a good tournament, but our men’s FS team is still elite. 

Doesn’t Amine train at the same place Parris does?

How did RBY look?

 

[pokemonster]

4 hours ago, scribers said:

Another thing that’s happening is women’s wrestling is being built with the ideal structure for greater success at worlds. If this works, and they are gaining interest from what I read here, it’s going to be hard to look away from objective results 

They are certainly doing well and I love to see it, but to be honest, most nations do not culturally, financially, or practically care about women's sports, including wrestling. The support USA women's wrestling is getting is probably unmatched outside of Japan. The competition is not going to be on par with the men's competition. 

Edited August 11 by pokemonster

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

9 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

in fairness

everyone has different styles... everyone has different styles to prepare for.

but i agree, isn't much of a team atmosphere.

we dont have the money to run a true team and training camp like the russians probably did.

i would think we used to run a camp like that.. but was it really successful? i mean when gable ran it... 

i can remember some stories about gable working them... and guys were like ... what the... is this...

 

I wonder what japan has in place

I think Gable overworked them in 93 or 94? 
But there are certainly plenty of skills and tactics they could be practicing as a group before breaking off. 
 

I would like to see something different than hand fight , handfight, handfight, maybe get a takedown, and then be totally unwilling to even attempt a turn. Be stood up and more of the same. This seemed to be the strategy in about 70% of our matches. 

Edited August 11 by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[billyhoyle]

7 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

They are certainly doing well and I love to see it, but to be honest, most nations do not culturally, financially, or practically care about women's sports, including wrestling. The competition is not going to be on par with the men's competition. 

And neither did the US until recently. 0 gold medals until 2016, and only now is women’s wrestling starting at the D1 collegiate level. The difference is the women are focusing on freestyle their entire lives.  If women’s NCAA wrestling gains traction, and we get even 1/5th of the participation numbers of men’s wrestling, there’s no doubt in my mind US will surpass Japan.
 

BTW, the countries that are supposedly impossible to surpass in men’s FS like Russia and Iran barely support the men’s sport as well. I was talking to a friend from Japan (lived there his entire life until 4 years ago), and he had no clue Japan even is good at wrestling and had no idea how people in Japan learn it. 

 

We have orders of magnitude more athletes competing in wrestling at the youth level compared to these better countries, and our ncaa athletes have significantly more resources. The difference is we compete in a completely different style that kneecaps our athletes against the best in the world. 

Edited August 11 by billyhoyle

[Scouts Honor]

hs girls is not free 

[pokemonster]

8 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think Gable overworked them in 93 or 94? 
But there are certainly plenty of skills and tactics they could be practicing as a group before breaking off. 
 

I would like to see something different than hand fight , handfight, handfight, maybe get a takedown, and then be totally unwilling to even attempt a turn. Be stood up and more of the same. This seemed to be the strategy in about 70% of our matches. 

On this note, does Snyder really have 0 par terre game? Is his body or style just not conducive to it? I can't recall him ever getting turns on decent competition. 

[wrestle87]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Lol c’mon.  We didn’t have a good tournament, but our men’s FS team is still elite. 

Doesn’t Amine train at the same place Parris does?

How did RBY look?

 

Got any answers as to why we had a bad tournament in a weakened field? Or just want to “lol c’mon” and leave it at that?

RBY-down artificially low, weight cut killed him. 

And you’re proving my point, Amine and Parris come from the same room, but they don’t go through the same process. Odds on that this is a USAW issue of some sort. Don’t know what it is, but to have athletes coming from 3 rooms all look off, where are the commonalities for their process leading up?

Our guys usually wrestle the way seabass and amine did, they didn’t this time.  

These tournaments happen once every 4 years.  Each weight class within the US has 20+ dudes putting their lives on hold for years just to aim at these few days of wrestling.  Their effort and investment demand the respect of a few questions and raised eyebrows when the entire team looks off, considering it has been decades since we last failed to bring home at least one men’s gold.

Not to mention, if we want to actually keep good wrestlers in the US system, we need to be showing out.  We will keep losing more talent to dual citizenship otherwise.  

[wrestle87]

13 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I think Gable overworked them in 93 or 94? 
But there are certainly plenty of skills and tactics they could be practicing as a group before breaking off. 
 

I would like to see something different than hand fight , handfight, handfight, maybe get a takedown, and then be totally unwilling to even attempt a turn. Be stood up and more of the same. This seemed to be the strategy in about 70% of our matches. 

This 100%.  It seemed like somebody fell in love with Iran’s tactics and decided that was the way for the entire team to wrestle.  The amount of time guys spent trying to push from a short offense underhook was rather remarkable.  

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

hs girls is not free 

Depends on the state. 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

5 minutes ago, pokemonster said:

On this note, does Snyder really have 0 par terre game? Is his body or style just not conducive to it? I can't recall him ever getting turns on decent competition. 

When I consider (and I have thought about this) : oh maybe Snyder’s fireplug body isn’t ideal for par terre, I remember Townsend Saunders being able to turn just about anyone if he was able to get a chance in par terre. 
 

Spencer is not exactly a beanpole either. 
 

I just don’t think par terre is a point of emphasis at NLWC. Cael had very little par terre himself. The top pupil, Taylor seemed to be wrestling folkstyle on top. 

[alliseeisgold]

Wow just saw Snyder lost , as a favorite again. 

We still don't think he's regressed since going to Carl ?

Been saying he's more average then elite all week but even I thought he would pull out a bronze. 

Boy.....RETHERford was the best performance by carl this week. Sometimes your just outclassed and that's ok. 

[wrestle87]

I don’t like bashing folkstyle, because it is a lot of fun, but there is no denying that having our best wrestling minds largely devoted to a completely different skillset definitely limits our ability as a country to innovate within the international skillset.

I really loved Jamalov pulling out a cradle from a cross body ride, that was super unexpected.

[wrestle87]

3 minutes ago, alliseeisgold said:

Wow just saw Snyder lost , as a favorite again. 

We still don't think he's regressed since going to Carl ?

Been saying he's more average then elite all week but even I thought he would pull out a bronze. 

Boy.....RETHERford was the best performance by carl this week. Sometimes your just outclassed and that's ok. 

You are spot on about snyder, he did his best wrestling under Tom Ryan no doubt.

[pokemonster]

1 minute ago, wrestle87 said:

You are spot on about snyder, he did his best wrestling under Tom Ryan no doubt.

I get the impression Tervel was the one who grew Snyder into the guy he is. He seems to have regressed a bit. 

[pokemonster]

13 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

When I consider (and I have thought about this) : oh maybe Snyder’s fireplug body isn’t ideal for par terre, I remember Townsend Saunders being able to turn just about anyone if he was able to get a chance in par terre. 
 

Spencer is not exactly a beanpole either. 
 

I just don’t think par terre is a point of emphasis at NLWC. Cael had very little par terre himself. The top pupil, Taylor seemed to be wrestling folkstyle on top. 

I can't imagine somebody working for so long to refine their craft just completely ignoring such a huge portion of their sport. Kiyooka's leglace vs Amouzad was a game changer.