Is there a chance we could get more Olympic weights?

[Voice of the Quakers]

On 4/16/2024 at 9:50 AM, FWwrestling said:

Is there any reason for why swimming gets so many events and athletes?  Is it just simply TV popularity?  Is it a governing body issue?

From working in media for the past 30+ years, I can tell you the three most popular sports in the Olympics are swimming, gymnastics and track and field - nothing else is even close, not USA basketball or whatever your personal preference.

But, understand even these sports are under roster pressure. The US swimming roster is capped this year at 26 men and 26 women.  In the pool, there are 14 individual events for men and women, three relays for men and women and one mixed relay. In addition, there is a 10K open water race for both men and women. While the US can enter up to two swimmers per race, only the trials winner in each race automatically qualifies in each race, and runners up are reliant on super swimmers like Michael Phelps to win multiple events at trials so that they can go to the games.

(Of note, my son has swam against one of the favorites in the 200 back this summer in MD; he is one those racers who, if he doesn't win the trials, will need to help to get to the games as he doesn't have a realistic chance to make the games in another race.) 

So, while the IOC wants more swimming events, they don't want any more athletes at the games - even for the most popular sports. I do believe you will see the IOC/World Aquatics add the 50 Breast, Fly and Back as well as additional relays (200 Free, 800 Medley, more mixed gender races) for future games. But, I won't be surprised if they continue to further limit the number of swimmers even the US can bring. 

[CHROMEBIRD]

44 minutes ago, Voice of the Quakers said:

From working in media for the past 30+ years, I can tell you the three most popular sports in the Olympics are swimming, gymnastics and track and field - nothing else is even close, not USA basketball or whatever your personal preference.

But, understand even these sports are under roster pressure. The US swimming roster is capped this year at 26 men and 26 women.  In the pool, there are 14 individual events for men and women, three relays for men and women and one mixed relay. In addition, there is a 10K open water race for both men and women. While the US can enter up to two swimmers per race, only the trials winner in each race automatically qualifies in each race, and runners up are reliant on super swimmers like Michael Phelps to win multiple events at trials so that they can go to the games.

(Of note, my son has swam against one of the favorites in the 200 back this summer in MD; he is one those racers who, if he doesn't win the trials, will need to help to get to the games as he doesn't have a realistic chance to make the games in another race.) 

So, while the IOC wants more swimming events, they don't want any more athletes at the games - even for the most popular sports. I do believe you will see the IOC/World Aquatics add the 50 Breast, Fly and Back as well as additional relays (200 Free, 800 Medley, more mixed gender races) for future games. But, I won't be surprised if they continue to further limit the number of swimmers even the US can bring. 

The IOC might need to get over their urge to limit competitors, esp when one of their core values is to expand global participation and reach. But the thought process sort of makes sense. More events & styles in a sport = more broadcast revenue opportunities and ticket sales; AND limiting the # of athletes = less  overall expenses. So ultimately, higher overall profits.

Taking their logic into account, how would people feel if Olympic wrestling became:

• MFS, WFS, Greco, and Women's Beach (or WGR)
• 9 weight classes each with the same weights across both styles (per gender)
• 2 rosters (men's & women's) with up to 2 participants per country for each weight (per gender)
• Men's roster competes in MFS & Greco, Women's roster competes in WFS & Beach

?

Just spitballing here, but something like this would hypothetically satisfy the IOC's inclination for more events, fewer individual athletes. It might also increase local participation in Greco and Women's Beach wrestling. No idea if having the same wrestlers competing in different styles would make them better overall wrestlers or if it would dilute the talent pool and make them generalists. Fun to think about, though.

 

Also, good luck @Voice of the Quakers to your son's quest to become an Olympian

[CHROMEBIRD]

4 minutes ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

• MFS, WFS, Greco, and Women's Beach (or WGR)
• 9 weight classes each with the same weights across both styles (per gender)
• 2 rosters (men's & women's) with up to 2 participants per country for each weight (per gender)
• Men's roster competes in MFS & Greco, Women's roster competes in WFS & Beach

Thinking through this a little bit, a hypothetical men's team competing in both MFS & Greco might look like:

56kg - Richards, Lee
62kg - Vito, Fix
68kg - Green, Retherford
74kg - Dake, Nolf
80kg - Burroughs, Bey
86kg - Taylor, Brooks
92kg - Braunagel, Valencia
98kg - Snyder, Cox
125kg - Parris, Schultz

Women's team would similarly have 2 participants per weight competing in WFS and WBW. Could be fun to watch.

[MPhillips]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

competing in both MFS & Greco

This would be a tough fix for many of our wrestlers.  I don't believe Lee, Fix, Retherford, Nolf, Brooks or Cox beats any of our Greco guys...

But I hear ya. 

[Voice of the Quakers]

2 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

The IOC might need to get over their urge to limit competitors, esp when one of their core values is to expand global participation and reach. But the thought process sort of makes sense. More events & styles in a sport = more broadcast revenue opportunities and ticket sales; AND limiting the # of athletes = less  overall expenses. So ultimately, higher overall profits.

Taking their logic into account, how would people feel if Olympic wrestling became:

• MFS, WFS, Greco, and Women's Beach (or WGR)
• 9 weight classes each with the same weights across both styles (per gender)
• 2 rosters (men's & women's) with up to 2 participants per country for each weight (per gender)
• Men's roster competes in MFS & Greco, Women's roster competes in WFS & Beach

?

Just spitballing here, but something like this would hypothetically satisfy the IOC's inclination for more events, fewer individual athletes. It might also increase local participation in Greco and Women's Beach wrestling. No idea if having the same wrestlers competing in different styles would make them better overall wrestlers or if it would dilute the talent pool and make them generalists. Fun to think about, though.

 

Also, good luck @Voice of the Quakers to your son's quest to become an Olympian

Let me correct your last comment - my son is NOT going to be an Olympian. (He will swim D2 or D3 in college.) But, the fella he regularly swam against last season on the YMCA circuit, Daniel Diehl, may make the Olympic team this year. Daniel finished 3rd in the US Nationals last year in the 200 Back, just missing going to the open Worlds. So, all he did was go to World Juniors and win 3 golds and 2 silvers. My son and I considered it a "win" anytime he touched the 3rd wall before Daniel touched the 4th wall in a 100 and when he didn't get lapped in a 200.

[Voice of the Quakers]

Also, CHROMEBIRD, I think you're absolutely right about beach wrestling. I think the IOC/UWW will eventually create a one-day beach wrestling tournament for men and women at the games open to anyone already competing in FS or GR. Again, more competitions, more medals, and no more athletes.

[CHROMEBIRD]

On 4/13/2024 at 6:12 AM, Eagle26 said:

After I went on a rant in the Vito thread, I came across this article about the fan fest at OTT.

This is on the schedule for Friday…

“4:00-4:30 – Expansion of Olympic Weight Classes, State of Wrestling Internationally Discussion - USA Wrestling Executive Director Rich Bender with WIN Magazine’s Bryan Van Kley”

https://www.themat.com/news/2024/april/12/fan-fest-set-between-sessions-at-u-s-olympic-team-trials-across-street-at-pegula-ice-arena-with-food-drink-vendors-signings-more

Please, Please, Please let it not be just speculation!

I completely forgot about this. What did Bender say?

[Eagle26]

Well, it was pretty anticlimactic. I was (wishfully) thinking he may announce there’s some progress to more weights, but he really just talked about why it is the way it is. It is not about medal count, so eliminating the double bronze would not help. It is all about overall number in the sport… I believe he said it’s like 480 wrestlers across all 3 styles. Overall Olympics is capped at 10,500 but they keep going over. With all the new sports they add, they are not going to add numbers to us. He did assure us that there are like 5 sports on the chopping block for 2028 but not wrestling and we are pretty safe as a core sport. 

 

As far as solutions… he said we could add weights if we reduced the number of wrestlers in the bracket at each weight. However, that’s not going to pass because no countries would ever vote for that except a few of the top dogs because they want to get their guys qualified. So essentially no viable solutions were given

[JeanGuy]

I can trim down a bunch of athletes in a hurry.

Eliminate - BMX Racing and BMX Freestyle, 3x3Basketball, Sport Climbing, Flag Football, Trampoline, Golf and Skateboarding.

That should be enough spots for full weight classes. These events should have never been in the Olympics.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

5 hours ago, JeanGuy said:

I can trim down a bunch of athletes in a hurry.

Eliminate - BMX Racing and BMX Freestyle, 3x3Basketball, Sport Climbing, Flag Football, Trampoline, Golf and Skateboarding.

That should be enough spots for full weight classes. These events should have never been in the Olympics.

 

There are a few others, where the Olympics are not the pinnacle of their sport, that I would not mind seeing eliminated and that would probably not bother anyone in their sport if they were eliminated: baseball, soccer, rugby, and tennis.

[Wrestleknownothing]

On 4/16/2024 at 8:50 AM, FWwrestling said:

Is there any reason for why swimming gets so many events and athletes?  Is it just simply TV popularity?  Is it a governing body issue?

Because swimming is awesome.

Oh, and all the stuff @Voice of the Quakers said.

[wrestle87]

On 4/17/2024 at 4:43 PM, Voice of the Quakers said:

Also, CHROMEBIRD, I think you're absolutely right about beach wrestling. I think the IOC/UWW will eventually create a one-day beach wrestling tournament for men and women at the games open to anyone already competing in FS or GR. Again, more competitions, more medals, and no more athletes.

The followinb are questions simply so we  (I) can understand what is taking place with the olympics, and whether wrestling will eventually need to evolve to celebrate its best competition outside an event like the olympics.  Wrestling’s biggest handicap is that it’s most meaningful event piggybacks off of a larger gathering to garner significance.  Nobody really cares about American football not being in the olympics, and nobody really cares too much about the basketball or baseball medals.  Similarly, MMA sure as heck doesn’t lack for gravity or atmosphere at its events.

So is the pushback on athlete headcount entirely from the perspective of managing overhead costs and driving towards an overhead dollars per event or dollars per medal awarded scenario?

Makes me wonder what they’re doing for events like the marathon and triathlon, are they shrinking the fields for those events too?

Lastly, are host countries entirely responsible for all costs associated with hosting those olympics?  If economic and traffic practicalities for the home country are the driving force, it is lame, but makes sense why rosters and total team headcounts would get capped.

[Shibboleth]

IOC has gender-balanced almost every sport. Wrestling is out of balance  (currently men are twice as many).  I think the writing is on the wall that it's either going to be 6 weights for women and 3 for each of Greco and Freestyle, or some other combination where men and women get the samen number of athletes in.

Also there is no way IOC is expanding the overall quota for wrestling at the Olympics. Wrestling is not popular. Also there's corruption scandals and overall governance is lackluster. See Chamizo incident, the Russian stuff, Countries hosting and not allowing other countries in (Albania not allowing Iran, Azerbaijan not allowing Armenia). Currently there are 288 wrestlers total competing. IOC is probably looking at cutting this to 250 or less.

One option is adding GR for women and then having 3 weight classes per sport. (3 for FS, 3 WW, 3 GR, 3 GR-W). 

Or, with addition of Beach Wresting, GR is removed and it's 3 weights each like 3 FS, 3 WW, 3 Beach Wrestling Men, and women). Maybe FS/WW keep 16 wrestlers in each weight class and Beach wrestling gets 12, so it's about 250 total wrestlers.

Or - having 4 weight classes for FS, WW, BR-M and BR-W, but cutting quotas for each. 

This is the future, like it or not
 

Edited April 25 by Shibboleth

[wrestle87]

Wrestling should really start working towards something like the X games or the UFC.  I am a not a fan of Flo overall, but what they did with Final X was really really good.

That level of production for the most significant matches in the sport is important.  NBC is absolutely an artificial lid/limiter on the sport.  Long term, sports that stick around cannot be in a place where they just let some random dudes show up and grenade all semblance of logic for weight class order in pursuit of…I guess ratings and gender equality? That was horsecrap.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 4/17/2024 at 4:03 PM, MPhillips said:

This would be a tough fix for many of our wrestlers.  I don't believe Lee, Fix, Retherford, Nolf, Brooks or Cox beats any of our Greco guys...

But I hear ya. 

I just watched a video about Cox training Greco with Coon, with Coon basically saying Cox could be a force in the classical style.

[MPhillips]

1 hour ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

I just watched a video about Cox training Greco with Coon, with Coon basically saying Cox could be a force in the classical style.

But he isn't...