Updated Team Rankings 12/13/2022

[Wrestleknownothing]

Penn State had a good week and their expected lead has grown along with their expected number of All-Americans per Intermat

 

Flo has the lead pretty much unchanged, but doesn't like Iowa as much (they are also the only service that is including the All-Star Classic in their rankings)

 

I am never really sure what to say about Wrestlestat

[Wrestleknownothing]

Let's talk about the ongoing silliness that is the Flo rankings policy. They will not include an injury default, including those that occur after the match starts, because "the match didn't happen according to the NCAA, if the NCAA includes them we will" (that was a Christian Pyles paraphrase from a recent FRL).

But another match that did not happen according to the NCAA, the All-Star Challenge, they do include.

Anyone care to offer a theory why they would do that?

Anyone care to offer a theory on how that theory interacts with their prior statements about the objectiveness of their approach?

[98lberEating2Lunches]

  On 12/13/2022 at 9:12 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Anyone care to offer a theory why they would do that?

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To make the NWCA All Star matches seem more relevant because they stream it.  To eliminate extra work of evaluating injury results separate from widely available records.

Objectively, Flo does whatever acts in what it believes is its best interest (promote their products at minimum cost).

[gimpeltf]

  On 12/13/2022 at 9:12 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Let's talk about the ongoing silliness that is the Flo rankings policy. They will not include an injury default, including those that occur after the match starts, because "the match didn't happen according to the NCAA, if the NCAA includes them we will" (that was a Christian Pyles paraphrase from a recent FRL).

But another match that did not happen according to the NCAA, the All-Star Challenge, they do include.

Anyone care to offer a theory why they would do that?

Anyone care to offer a theory on how that theory interacts with their prior statements about the objectiveness of their approach?

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??? Defaults ONLY happen after the match starts and they all happened according to the NCAA. Medical Forfeits on the other hand...

As to the All-Star match, rankings are opinions so they can choose whatever criteria they want. Which could ignore defaults- just don't say the NCAA doesn't include them.

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 12/13/2022 at 10:41 PM, gimpeltf said:

??? Defaults ONLY happen after the match starts and they all happened according to the NCAA. Medical Forfeits on the other hand...

As to the All-Star match, rankings are opinions so they can choose whatever criteria they want. Which could ignore defaults- just don't say the NCAA doesn't include them.

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The point is that Flo vehemently denies that rankings are opinions and then they make choices that contradict that position.

[gimpeltf]

  On 12/13/2022 at 11:29 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

The point is that Flo vehemently denies that rankings are opinions and then they make choices that contradict that position.

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Irrelevant what they say about rankings. By definition, they are opinions. Even if they lay out a large amount of "specific" criteria. The criteria they lay out are based on someone or some groups opinions. What the NCAA uses although specific is still based on opinion.

[ionel]

  On 12/13/2022 at 11:29 PM, Wrestleknownothing said:

The point is that Flo vehemently denies that rankings are opinions and then they make choices that contradict that position.

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So its their opinion that they are not opinions.  

[gimpeltf]

  On 12/13/2022 at 11:38 PM, ionel said:

So its their opinion that they are not opinions.  

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Of course.

At least, that's my opinion.

Edited December 14, 2022 by gimpeltf

[Dark Energy]

Where does Flo state their rankings don’t have subjective aspects to it? 
 

They constantly debate their own rankings on FRL, often commenting that they could see how rankings could be moved around for some wrestlers and make sense.  Very much acknowledging the subjectivity.  
 

They can use the criteria they want.  They saw a wrestling match at the all-star meet and thus are including it.  Perfectly reasonable.

A match is injury defaulted - was the winner up 12-2 at time of default or was the loser up 12-2?  Did the default happen 20 seconds in or with 20 seconds left?  Did the injury happen early when loser was up 8-1 but the guy kept wrestling and when defaulted was down 9-13?  How would all the situations above be included in the ranking considerations? Other situations?  Hard to do this consistently across all the various injury defaults — lots of match detail to study.  Perhaps they made decision to simplify and simply not count it.  Reasonable to me.

Edited December 14, 2022 by Dark Energy

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 12/14/2022 at 12:04 AM, Dark Energy said:

Where does Flo state their rankings don’t have subjective aspects to it? 
 

They constantly debate their own rankings on FRL, often commenting that they could see how rankings could be moved around for some wrestlers and make sense.  Very much acknowledging the subjectivity.  
 

They can use the criteria they want.  They saw a wrestling match at the all-star meet and thus are including it.  Perfectly reasonable.

A match is injury defaulted - was the winner up 12-2 at time of default or was the loser up 12-2?  Did the default happen 20 seconds in or with 20 seconds left?  Did the injury happen early when loser was up 8-1 but the guy kept wrestling and when defaulted was down 9-13?  How would all the situations above be included in the ranking considerations? Other situations?  Hard to do this consistently across all the various injury defaults — lots of match detail to study.  Perhaps they made decision to simplify and simply not count it.  Reasonable to me.

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Their stated reason for not including injury defaults is that the NCAA does not include injury defaults. They have also stated that when the NCAA includes injury defaults, so will they. So why include other matches that the NCAA does not include?

It has nothing to do with ease of interpretation.

[Dark Energy]

  On 12/14/2022 at 2:28 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Their stated reason for not including injury defaults is that the NCAA does not include injury defaults. They have also stated that when the NCAA includes injury defaults, so will they. So why include other matches that the NCAA does not include?

It has nothing to do with ease of interpretation.

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So says you.  They’ve discussed this multiple times over the years.  Difficulty in applying the situations has been discussed as part of the problem.  
 

 

[Jason Bryant]

I’m going to need to see/hear the specific comment that they claim the NCAA doesn’t count injury defaults … because they’re losses and they count.

[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 12/14/2022 at 2:39 AM, Dark Energy said:

So says you.  They’ve discussed this multiple times over the years.  Difficulty in applying the situations has been discussed as part of the problem.  
 

 

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  On 12/14/2022 at 2:51 AM, Jason Bryant said:

I’m going to need to see/hear the specific comment that they claim the NCAA doesn’t count injury defaults … because they’re losses and they count.

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Crap, now I have to go back through FRLs to find it. I think it was 868 or 870. But stay tuned.

[ionel]

  On 12/14/2022 at 2:28 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Their stated reason for not including injury defaults is that the NCAA does not include injury defaults. They have also stated that when the NCAA includes injury defaults, so will they. So why include other matches that the NCAA does not include?

It has nothing to do with ease of interpretation.

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go with the flo bro    

[GreatWhiteNorth]

  On 12/14/2022 at 2:28 AM, Wrestleknownothing said:

Their stated reason for not including injury defaults is that the NCAA does not include injury defaults. They have also stated that when the NCAA includes injury defaults, so will they. So why include other matches that the NCAA does not include?

It has nothing to do with ease of interpretation.

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[Wrestleknownothing]

  On 12/14/2022 at 2:51 AM, Jason Bryant said:

I’m going to need to see/hear the specific comment that they claim the NCAA doesn’t count injury defaults … because they’re losses and they count.

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  On 12/14/2022 at 2:39 AM, Dark Energy said:

So says you.  They’ve discussed this multiple times over the years.  Difficulty in applying the situations has been discussed as part of the problem.  
 

 

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I linked from the start of the conversation (1:11:00). After Ben Askren says, "I hate the fact that you don't count them as loses", Christian Pyles responds, "Yep, um, that is, uh, an example where, you know, it's not great, but can't count injury default wins...yeah, I mean, if the NCAA changes their stance on it, then, uh, maybe we would too, but."

Askren says loses clearly and Pyles mumbles the word wins as JD Rader begins to talk over him, so I guess I focused on Askren's claim and missed Pyles' qualifier.

Later (1:14:36) Pyles says that Lewan will not fall in the rankings because of the Scott injury default match, but will fall because he lost to Kendall Coleman, and so seems to contradict his earlier statement.

In short it is a mess.

[jajensen09]

  On 12/14/2022 at 2:51 AM, Jason Bryant said:

I’m going to need to see/hear the specific comment that they claim the NCAA doesn’t count injury defaults … because they’re losses and they count.

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Injury defaults are not counted as loses currently. It is starting to be a major problem though

[Jason Bryant]

  On 12/15/2022 at 12:56 AM, jajensen09 said:

Injury defaults are not counted as loses currently. It is starting to be a major problem though

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Injury defaults are losses. Medical forfeits are not. As I understand it, it's the medical forfeit in a tournament that people have issue with when people bail out and that means the wrestler they're supposed to wrestle doesn't get the opportunity to wrestle. I'm still trying to figure out where and when this claim that injury defaults don't count as losses. They are losses. They've always been losses. 

[gimpeltf]

  On 12/15/2022 at 1:42 AM, Jason Bryant said:

Injury defaults are losses. Medical forfeits are not. As I understand it, it's the medical forfeit in a tournament that people have issue with when people bail out and that means the wrestler they're supposed to wrestle doesn't get the opportunity to wrestle. I'm still trying to figure out where and when this claim that injury defaults don't count as losses. They are losses. They've always been losses. 

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They didn't listen to me about this either

[Jason Bryant]

  On 12/15/2022 at 2:23 AM, gimpeltf said:

They didn't listen to me about this either

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Who is "they" in this situation? 

[gimpeltf]

  On 12/15/2022 at 3:16 AM, Jason Bryant said:

Who is "they" in this situation? 

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The people in this thread