USA Greco

[Jim L]

On 12/11/2022 at 11:31 PM, Cherkov said:

I don't think it's fair to compare MFS to GR in the United States. MFS was winning gold medals in the 40s. It took until the 1980s for the first GR gold medal from an American...

I had to look it up.  You are correct that the US won two golds in the 1948 Olympics, but after that through 1969, they won a total of four more golds. Dan Gable made his world debut in 1970 and since then the US has been a top team.  

[LJB]

4 team titles in the women's style...

1 in greco...

 

i know everyone forgets, but, it wasn't until very recently that the US as a "team" were not also rans...

some bright spots for sure, but, not like it is now since some enterprising figures pushed the RTC format...

 

RTCs definitely make USAW look like they are doing something that deserves real praise, but, are they really?

 

i wonder what could help greco in this country?

maybe some enterprising figures decide that it is up to them...

Edited December 14, 2022 by LJB
apparently i can not count...

[Relentless133]

Reminder for those of you interested in Greco tonight are possibly some good senior level matches after/during a high school and college dual in Colorado. 

Most interesting to me will be Ismael Borrero (Olympic Champ) wrestling. 

Not sure how all the matches will work out but think its about

Sam Jones (World Team) vs Borrero and Mostaffa Hassan (World Champ).

Also, the return of Rulon vs. Tanner Farmer (Final X/Illinois RTC) and/or Jacob Mitchell (multiple national teams/WCAP).

Here is the link: https://www.meridix.com/event/221295

They probably will show the senior matches around 6:00-7:00 local time.

 

[LJB]

Tanner is out…

the Rulon match will be slightly modified rule set…

no par terre… 

[Mike Parrish]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:38 AM, LJB said:

4 team titles in the women's style...

1 in greco...

 

i know everyone forgets, but, it wasn't until very recently that the US as a "team" were not also rans...

some bright spots for sure, but, not like it is now since some enterprising figures pushed the RTC format...

 

RTCs definitely make USAW look like they are doing something that deserves real praise, but, are they really?

 

i wonder what could help greco in this country?

maybe some enterprising figures decide that it is up to them...

A greco only RTC seems like it might help.

I don't see the existing RTCs helping much.

[Cherkov]

On 12/11/2022 at 11:09 PM, Theo Brixton said:

I have no expectations that greco should be as successful as MFS but they can at least be respectable. No one denies that MFS has important advantages over greco. Despite these advantages, even MFS was mediocre in the 2000's with the decade preceding RTCs being one of the worst ever. In the 2010 worlds, I count 11 FS/10 GR medals for countries that would otherwise be part of the USSR (not even counting Russia). No doubt this made it more difficult for both styles to have success. Without resources similar to the RTC model, greco has been left behind.

Sad to see Olympic success in the US is basically tied to the interests of college boosters. But that is where we appear to be.

I don't know if it's harder to win in today's USSR collapse era as opposed to the Soviet Era. The US only world medaled 16 times (excluding a weak boycott year) in Greco during the USSR's time. They only had one gold medalist, who barely won his gold and lost a match on route. The US has already lapped that amount a in far shorter span post USSR collapse. 

The Soviet Union was much better than Russia in GR, I don't think that's as clear cut in MFS. There used to be strong eastern bloc GR programs in Bulgaria, Poland, Romania  and they all suck now compared to what they were. And with only 3 medals available you had to beat them to get on the podium. Maybe you could say Turkey, Cuba,  and Iran have recently replaced some of those old winning countries, but a lot has happened other than it just getting harder. 

[Cherkov]

Of the two weight classes I know most about. The landscape and where the US fits into it.

130 kg

#1  Kayaalp- The default number one, until someone can beat him for a world or european title and then back it up with another gold. Possibly declining with age already.

#2 Semenov- There is no clear number 2. Went with Semenov because of some h2h results. Most offensive stylistically super heavy and only one who really incorporates throws into his repertoire. 

#3  Pino- Giant, strong. Almost always medals. Low activity since 2019. 

#4 Mirzazadeh- Defensively hard to score on. Almost beat Riza. Has a lot of close matches though. Like to see him against #2 and #3.

#5 Yousefi- Took some bad losses in minor tournaments this year.  Struggles against Mirzazadeh. Still young. Won a weak worlds field. 

#6 Yildrim- Best 130 kg wrestler with no world medals. Wins a lot of minor tournaments and has beaten a lot of medalists, solid all around but not great.

#7 Zurabi- Flukish silver, took some scalps. Terrible cardio. Put him here since he still wrestled Semenov close recently.

#8 Kajaia- Took some bad losses this year, but wrestled other break out stars tough. He's been the most consistent wrestler not named Riza until 2022.  Could be aging out, if he looks bad at euros, may be over for him.

#9 Acosta- Tough to score on. Injuries and age have taken their toll on him. 

#10 Alin- Kayaalp's punching bag. Has a knack for picking his moments, rises to occasions when the draw works out kindly to him.  

Colton Schultz. -Right now is a one and done or one more and done type. Doesn't have a reliable way of scoring and gives up points too easily. Good news is that he's still young and there is no great young champion on the horizon (yet). 

97 kg

#1 Evloev- Best par terre offence at the weight. Best thrower from par terre.  Amazing defense and positioning from neutral. Only real weakness is par terre defense.  Hasn't lost a big tournament since 2017.

#2 Aleksanjan- Only Evloev can match him when he is in form. Injury prone but looked good at worlds.

#3 Saravi- Separated himself the rest of the field. Has a bad matchup issue against Aleksanjan. Wrestled Evloev close. Youngish.

#4. Sargsyan- Swept age groups and medaled in first senior outing. Saravi exposed his current ceiling though. 

#5 Melnikov- Last man to have beaten Evloev (in a warm up tournament of dubious importance). Old. 

#6 Golovin- Probably better than most other countries rep. Places at Russian events but is in a stacked weight and gets few chances. 

#7 Milov- First of the wrestlers of the 'lower tier'. Good medal year in 2022.  Loses comfortably to the very top wrestlers. 

#8 Balduaf- Has nice past wins like Aleksanjan at euros. Inconsistent  

#9 Slavonian- Youngish wrestler. Once considered of the most potential among his age group. Has made finals in top tournaments.

#10 Szoke- Beat Hancock and wrestled Saravi+ Evloev to respectable scores. A large 97. 

Amos- been winging it and hoping his toughness and athleticism win him the day in greco. He is years of greco exposure behind his competitors. With him still not training greco it will take till his late 20s, just to catch up to the technical side of where his rivals are now (most who have focused on Greco since at least 15). It will only get harder to learn with age. Possible that his athletic ceiling isn't high enough to match the top 3 even if he does train up.  

 

 

[LJB]

schultz and amos both have the same problem right now... they are still wasting time learning how not to wrestle... 

 

amos has the advantage currently just because we have very little depth at 97kg...

 

rulon is coming back at 130kg this year... that adds excitment...

 

and there is a kid aden attao who just picked up a bronze at U20 this summer while terrorizing heavies all across this nation... 

[BaldAt23]

The fact that we consider 51 year old Rulon Gardner coming out of retirement the biggest story for USA greco tells you all you need to know about the direction. 

[LJB]

 

[Cherkov]

8 hours ago, BaldAt23 said:

The fact that we consider 51 year old Rulon Gardner coming out of retirement the biggest story for USA greco tells you all you need to know about the direction. 

You get this every once in a while with a high profile person. Watanabe tried a comeback at 46. 

The oldest and longest away person that I know of who did something notable was a 35 year old after 4 years of retirement. Gardner is over 50, has been gone for two decades, and has health issues. 

There are a lot of myths about Rulon and his career. A lot of people think he left Greco on the same terms as Gable Steveson, that was not the case at all. 

 

[nick]

Part 2 - https://www.fivepointmove.com/usa-greco/editorial-in-too-deep-gm/

[MPhillips]

Wow!  That's quite an article well worth the read. 

[LJB]

i have started and stopped several different responses...

i feel like my best/most appropriate/smartest/whatever response is just to say that timmy hands absolutely loves greco and for him to feel this fed up speaks volumes...

he is not alone...

[MPhillips]

42 minutes ago, LJB said:

i have started and stopped several different responses..

I always appreciate/trust your Greco takes fwiw. With that said, your lack of a response is understood and noted. 

[Mike Parrish]

Brutal article.

Reminds me so much of senior management bullshit in Silicon Valley.

 

Quote

In my estimation, the only coaches who might claim to believe that USAW acts in the best interests of Greco-Roman are those directly employed by them.

Ow

Edited December 23, 2022 by Mike Parrish

[CropDuster507]

This 5PM series might be the most enlightening wrestling journalism is a really long time tbh

[de4856]

According to social media, Adam Coon is returning to CKWC, hopefully this will turn into an opportunity for him to get back on the Senior team. 

[LJB]

his opportunity will be cemented once he pays his entry fee for the Open in april...

i don't think schultz has ever beaten coon...

coon had several chances to qualify the weight for Tokyo and could not get it done...

the rulon variable...

heavy might be significantly more interesting than usual this year at least in april...

[LJB]

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2023/January/12/Cheney-Haight-named-National-Greco-Roman-Developmental-Coach

 

[MPhillips]

8 minutes ago, LJB said:

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2023/January/12/Cheney-Haight-named-National-Greco-Roman-Developmental-Coach

 

Thoughts?

[LJB]

1 minute ago, MPhillips said:

Thoughts?

i have never met the guy... 

i really do not have an opinion...

there is a camp at the OTC going on right now... curious to hear what they think later this evening...

 

 

[mspart]

Just read that article.   Hope is low for American GR.   That was tough reading.   Very depressing.  Why would USAW want to destroy GR wrestling?

mspart

[LJB]

it is less they want to destroy greco and seemingly more they do not want to do anything in regards to greco...

just devote the absolute least amount of effort and resources they can get by with to only keep the program from absolutely disappearing...

clearly, that feels like a job well done to USAW...

 

obviously...

USAW looks at greco through the same lens as the typical american wrestling "fan" does...

[LJB]

having said that, it is not entirely USAW's fault...

the amount of squabbling that goes on within the greco community in the US is a bit embarrassing considering no one has of yet separated from anyone else domestically in regards to results...