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Wind power no good at temperature extremes


mspart

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https://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2024/01/the-cold-truth-about-renewable-energy.html

Cliff Mass of University of WA explains that for the local area (pacific northwest), wind turbines and solar are not good solutions during cold snaps and heat snaps when energy demand is the greatest and wind and solar are at their lowest. 

At very cold and very hot moments, there is little wind as the baro conditions don't allow for wind which he shows in various graphs.   In the winter we get no sun so solar is not really a good option around here.   Summer, we do get more sun but again it is not a reliable resource.  

This is not to say there aren't benefits of both wind and solar.   But this is to say we cannot get rid of the current power grid of hydro, natural gas, and nuclear and concentrate on wind and solar.   They cannot provide the energy needed at peak demand times.  An interesting data driven observation. 

mspart

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1 hour ago, mspart said:

An interesting data driven observation.

We are the federales.  You know, the climate science police. 

If you are the scientists where are your data?

Data?!?  We ain't got no data.  We don't need no data!!!  I don't have to show you any stinkin' data!!

 

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The issue with wind, solar, hydro and any other renewable is not just a problem with the source, but it is the interaction of the source with our existing grid.

Our power grid has no storage capacity. That means all power generation must perfectly match all power demand at all times. Since the availability of renewables is undependable, until the storage problem is solved, they must always be used in combination with fossil fuel based generation.

Fossil fuel generation also has availability issues of its own. It is very time consuming and expensive to bring a cold fossil fuel power plant online. If demand spikes and the plant is not already on line it will be too late to satisfy the demand and brown outs and black outs ensue. The historic solution is to always have them online. This is as suboptimal as the wind stopping. Or for that matter, blowing when there is not enough demand to consume the energy created.

Storage capacity forgives the sins of both types of energy source as it moves energy through time from periods of low demand/high generation to periods of high demand/low generation.

Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge

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1 hour ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Our power grid has no storage capacity.

Dude, the organic fuel IS the storage.  We don't produce the electricity then hope someone can use it or else we put it in a bottle somewhere.  We produce to the demand using compact, transportable, scalable, controllable, releasable on demand, energy which is chemically stored in a naturally occurring organic form.  THAT is the storage capacity and it is fantastic.

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21 minutes ago, Lipdrag said:

 We don't produce the electricity then hope someone can use it or else we put it in a bottle somewhere. 

Oh yeah? How does your phone work? Do you plug it into the wall every time you post here? Or maybe you store electricity in its bottle somewhere then hope you can use it.

That is exactly what ever one of us does every day.

Edited by Wrestleknownothing

Drowning in data, but thirsting for knowledge

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19 hours ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

The issue with wind, solar, hydro and any other renewable is not just a problem with the source, but it is the interaction of the source with our existing grid.   I can agree. 

Our power grid has no storage capacity. That means all power generation must perfectly match all power demand at all times. Since the availability of renewables is undependable, until the storage problem is solved, they must always be used in combination with fossil fuel based generation.    I agree. 

Fossil fuel generation also has availability issues of its own. It is very time consuming and expensive to bring a cold fossil fuel power plant online. If demand spikes and the plant is not already on line it will be too late to satisfy the demand and brown outs and black outs ensue. The historic solution is to always have them online. This is as suboptimal as the wind stopping. Or for that matter, blowing when there is not enough demand to consume the energy created.   It is better for everyone to keep the generation online.   The energy is ready when it is needed.   Once up and running, a fossil fuel or hydro or nuclear plant can raise and lower its output fairly quickly to match demand.   It is suboptimal but better than the other choices we have currently. 

Storage capacity forgives the sins of both types of energy source as it moves energy through time from periods of low demand/high generation to periods of high demand/low generation.   There is no way to store that kind of energy via battery or capacitor.   Maybe a house can do it but a powerplant?   Nope.

Responses above in RED.

mspart

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The grid needs to be modernized I will agree.   But to store the amount of energy for future use that will be needed is not something that can be done currently. 

The best way to do that is to pump water to an upper reservoir with surplus energy.   That would be the battery for when the energy is needed later.   There is a loss with this operation due to physics and thermodynamics (which arguably the latter is a subset of the former).  Developing battery storage devices are not feasible at this time.  

What would help is a plentiful supply of fossil fuel (thinking natural gas) that the admin seems to be not in favor of.

mspart

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19 hours ago, mspart said:

The grid needs to be modernized I will agree.   But to store the amount of energy for future use that will be needed is not something that can be done currently. 

The best way to do that is to pump water to an upper reservoir with surplus energy.   That would be the battery for when the energy is needed later.   There is a loss with this operation due to physics and thermodynamics (which arguably the latter is a subset of the former).  Developing battery storage devices are not feasible at this time.  

What would help is a plentiful supply of fossil fuel (thinking natural gas) that the admin seems to be not in favor of.

mspart

In our current situation fossil fuels are a great stop gap. Hopefully we can make advances enough to retire that option too. 

Agree with best alternatives. Other options are being worked on for less H2O accessible areas(kinetic batteries and what not). 

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