Is the strength at 165 unprecedented or what?

[Fadzaev2]

55 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

What had those gents won PRIOR to the 2008 tournament taking place, though?  JB hadn't even pulled a podium finish yet, had he?

I was just pointing out what they accomplished in their careers....prior to 08 you had Lang 2nd, Churella 2nd, Palmer 4th, and D. Schlatter 3rd/1st  It was an awesome weight class.

Edited November 27, 2022 by Fadzaev2

[jross]

I previously compiled a list of all D1 All Americans from 1960 to 2019 and made it available for anyone here.  Check it out and experiment with the data.  Below is a list of seasonal brackets where the All-Americans of that year were National Champions in any year.

These stand out

• 6 unique NCs
  • 2008 - 149lbs
• 5 unique NCs
  • 2014 - 125lbs
• 4 unique NCs
  • 1976 - 142lbs
  • 1979 - 142lbs
  • 1981 - 134lbs
  • 1986 - 142lbs
  • 1989 - 126lbs
  • 1994 - 142lbs
  • 1996 - 167lbs
  • 1998 - 118lbs
  • 1999 - 149lbs
  • 1999 - 133lbs
  • 2007 - 149lbs
  • 2007 - 125lbs
  • 2009 - 125lbs
  • 2017 - 184lbs
  • 2018 - 125lbs

The gap in that approach is that it misses DNP National Qualifiers that were NC in other years.  For example, Paul Donahoe was a 3xAA and National Champion that DNP in 2006 at 125lbs.

There was a good discussion on the old forum.  See the toughest weight brackets.zip

[Eagle26]

Re the 2008 149 weight class… I understand that it doesn’t really make sense to count future accomplishments. However, it can be a useful tool to see the talent that was there. Only one person can win per year so even if there was national champ caliber talent, they may not have had the previous accomplishments to show it. Examples would be Bubba Jenkins wrestled up at 157 the previous year and DNP but it was easy to see his talent that year. Same with Caldwell, he DNP at 141 the previous year losing a crazy match to Lang and then pinnned by Jaggers in the consis. Plus we all know JB’s rate of improvement was incredible and was clearly National champ caliber in 2008 despite what he did in 2007.  If you want to say that Caldwell, Jenkins, and Burroughs had no previous accomplishments so they don’t add to the depth of that weight, that’s a little crazy.

Re current 165, that’s pretty awesome we have three previous NCAA champs in the same weight. Is that really the first time it’s happened since 1982?! If so, that’s really impressive 

[nhs67]

1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

Re the 2008 149 weight class… I understand that it doesn’t really make sense to count future accomplishments. However, it can be a useful tool to see the talent that was there. Only one person can win per year so even if there was national champ caliber talent, they may not have had the previous accomplishments to show it. Examples would be Bubba Jenkins wrestled up at 157 the previous year and DNP but it was easy to see his talent that year. Same with Caldwell, he DNP at 141 the previous year losing a crazy match to Lang and then pinnned by Jaggers in the consis. Plus we all know JB’s rate of improvement was incredible and was clearly National champ caliber in 2008 despite what he did in 2007.  If you want to say that Caldwell, Jenkins, and Burroughs had no previous accomplishments so they don’t add to the depth of that weight, that’s a little crazy.

Re current 165, that’s pretty awesome we have three previous NCAA champs in the same weight. Is that really the first time it’s happened since 1982?! If so, that’s really impressive 

I don't think anybody wants to dog on that 2008 149lbs bracket.

The criteria asked wasn't about career accomplishments thereafter is all, just prior to.

[jross]

There was an upset in 1981 at 134lbs, with the 6th ranked wrestler defeating two returning NCAA champions on his way to the title.

• Randy Lewis - Iowa - 1st in 1980 at 134lbs, 1st in 1979 at 126lbs, 2nd in 1978 at 126lbs | Was injured in 1981...
• Darryl Burley - Lehigh - 2nd in 1980 at 134lbs, 1st in 1979 at 134lbs, [another 2nd in 1981, and 1st in 1983 at 142lbs]
• only for Jim Gibbons - Iowa State to win 1st in 1981 at 134lbs.
• and Clar Anderson - Auburn/OKST was waiting his chance for 1st in 1983 at 134lbs.

Validated - not there

• 1976 - 142lbs
• 1979 - 142lbs
• 1981 - 134lbs

[BerniePragle]

10 hours ago, jross said:

I previously compiled a list of all D1 All Americans from 1960 to 2019 and made it available for anyone here.  Check it out and experiment with the data.  Below is a list of seasonal brackets where the All-Americans of that year were National Champions in any year.

These stand out

• 6 unique NCs
  • 2008 - 149lbs
• 5 unique NCs
  • 2014 - 125lbs
• 4 unique NCs
  • 1976 - 142lbs
  • 1979 - 142lbs
  • 1981 - 134lbs
  • 1986 - 142lbs
  • 1989 - 126lbs
  • 1994 - 142lbs
  • 1996 - 167lbs
  • 1998 - 118lbs
  • 1999 - 149lbs
  • 1999 - 133lbs
  • 2007 - 149lbs
  • 2007 - 125lbs
  • 2009 - 125lbs
  • 2017 - 184lbs
  • 2018 - 125lbs

The gap in that approach is that it misses DNP National Qualifiers that were NC in other years.  For example, Paul Donahoe was a 3xAA and National Champion that DNP in 2006 at 125lbs.

There was a good discussion on the old forum.  See the toughest weight brackets.zip

I'm sure I'm setting myself up for a big forehead slap moment, but I have a question.  Is there some inherent reason that the data here shows a tendency toward the lower weights to appear more frequently?  Or is this just coincidence (kinda hard to believe becasuse it's a lot of data over a lot of years)?  Is this simply a matter of there being fewer wrestlers overall in the lower weight classes?

Isn't the bottom line of this that this becomes a matter of the wrestlers in the years/brackets shown "have been here before", or "will be here again"?  Isn't this somewhat a measurement of how much, or how little, "turnover" there is in (these) weight classes?  

I'm sure either I'm looking at this incorrectly, or the answer to my first question is obvious, but I just don't see it.  Thanks.

Edited November 28, 2022 by BerniePragle

[gimpeltf]

1 hour ago, BerniePragle said:

I'm sure I'm setting myself up for a big forehead slap moment, but I have a question.  Is there some inherent reason that the data here shows a tendency toward the lower weights to appear more frequently?  Or is this just coincidence (kinda hard to believe becasuse it's a lot of data over a lot of years)?  Is this simply a matter of there being fewer wrestlers overall in the lower weight classes?

Isn't the bottom line of this that this becomes a matter of the wrestlers in the years/brackets shown "have been here before", or "will be here again"?  Isn't this somewhat a measurement of how much, or how little, "turnover" there is in (these) weight classes?  

I'm sure either I'm looking at this incorrectly, or the answer to my first question is obvious, but I just don't see it.  Thanks.

Hard to grow into other weights from the higher weights and hard to be a freshman up there also.

[BerniePragle]

2 hours ago, BerniePragle said:

I'm sure I'm setting myself up for a big forehead slap moment, but I have a question.  Is there some inherent reason that the data here shows a tendency toward the lower weights to appear more frequently?  Or is this just coincidence (kinda hard to believe becasuse it's a lot of data over a lot of years)?  Is this simply a matter of there being fewer wrestlers overall in the lower weight classes?

Isn't the bottom line of this that this becomes a matter of the wrestlers in the years/brackets shown "have been here before", or "will be here again"?  Isn't this somewhat a measurement of how much, or how little, "turnover" there is in (these) weight classes?  

I'm sure either I'm looking at this incorrectly, or the answer to my first question is obvious, but I just don't see it.  Thanks.

Something I just thought of... Is the lack of heavier weights here simply a matter of it being easier for a national champ at, say, heavyweight to lose/have lost because of one wrong move?  It's comparatively tougher to get off your back with 250-285 lbs on you than 125 lbs.   I speak from observation only, not experience at the heavier weights, lol.

[jross]

There was an upset in 1996 at 167lbs, with the 5th-seeded wrestler defeating two returning NCAA champions on his way to the title.

• Markus Mollica -  Arizona State - 1st in 1995 at 167lbs, 5th in 1994 at 158lbs, 1st in 1993 at 158lbs
• Mark Branch - Oklahoma State - 2nd in 1995 at 167lbs, 1st in 1994 at 167lbs, [2nd in 1996 (injured in finals) and 1st in 1997 at 167lbs]
• only for Daryl Weber - Iowa - to win 1st in 1996 at 167lbs.
• and Barry Weldon - Iowa State bumped weight to secure 1st in 1997 at 177lbs.

 

Daryl Weber

Quote

I started wrestling at ten years old and, despite being part of a strong program, was at a small school that only trained three months a year. I did my best to find training and competition opportunities in the off-season, but by the end of my high school career, starting at the University of Iowa seemed like a long shot. I took it, and by the end of my redshirt freshmen year, I was the starter. This achievement became meaningless when I failed to qualify for the national tournament. The following year I was forced out of the lineup by two 3-time national champions, but I was unwilling to accept this and chose to cut down to 142 lbs (I had been a good-sized 158 lber) where I won All-American honors for the first time. With my eyes set on a national title, my sixth-place finish as a junior was ultimately unsatisfying, and my senior year I found myself sharing a weight class with two 2-time national champions, both of whom had beaten me convincingly in the past. But the cycle continued, and once again I overcame challenging circumstances, this time to achieve my ultimate goal of being an NCAA Champion.

https://www.attackstylewrestling.com/experts/daryl-weber/

 

Mark Branch

Quote

The following are Branch's words about his injury default loss to Weber in the 1996 NCAA Championship finals. 

PHYSICAL AND EMOTIONAL DAMAGE
The Weber loss was the one that probably hurt the most. It was the most physically painful because of the damage that I had in my knee. It was just heartbreaking because it was the last match of a really great season. I had a great tournament. I was healthy. I was wrestling my best. I had finally beaten Markus Mollica right before the postseason, which was a huge deal for me. I avenged my loss from my sophomore year (1995) in the finals heading into the (1996) NCAAs. My confidence level was great.

I had wrestled Weber not too long before NCAAs — I think mid-January — and had a dominating performance. Stepping out there I absolutely had the feeling that I was going to win an NCAA title. To not even be able to walk off the mat was a hard one. 

BITTERNESS AND ANGER
I was bitter about it for a lot of years. I didn’t really see that value in it — I didn’t look at it the way I do now for quite a while. I was bitter. I was mad. It really caused a lot of adversity from when I had surgery in April through that entire season. It created so much adversity in my life. I had a lot of complications — medically I had complications. 

All those things seemed 100 percent negative. I really had a lot of doubts through those months that I would wrestle again. I would say that I went through some depression and such but looking back at it from 40,000 feet I can see all the things it taught me as a person. How it helped me as a person. How it helped me as a wrestler. How it helped me as a coach.

Even as a wrestler I had to change my style. I had never shot a high crotch in my life and almost exclusively went to high crotches after that. Still to this day, it’s my favorite offensive attack. To be able to do that late in a college career — to be able to change your style and change techniques and learn new techniques — was overwhelmingly a positive experience for me. 

There is so much I point to from that situation. I’m thankful for it. One of these days if I’m not able to run around and chase my grandkids I might feel differently about it. I’m functional. I’m healthy. I was able to cap off my collegiate career undefeated with another national championship. It truly was a storybook ending that wouldn’t have been nearly as important in my life if I hadn’t gone through all the adversity that was created by it.

THE ROOT OF THE BITTERNESS
By that point, I didn’t like Iowa but it certainly wasn’t Iowa or their fans’ fault. I didn’t have any ill feelings toward them. I felt sorry for Weber in a sense. That’s not the way you want to win, either. That’s your shining moment. I’m sure it wasn’t ideal. You’d like to think in that situation that he had the confidence of going out and winning the match as a competitor. I don’t think I ever felt bitterness toward him. 

It’s almost like ‘Why did this happen? This isn’t fair.’ As an athlete, when you have a major injury you almost equate it to the loss of a loved one because you really do sacrifice so much of your life into that one moment. In a wrestler’s life, it comes down to that NCAA tournament for most of us. It’s everything you fight for your whole career — to get to that one tournament. That’s probably why I felt so heartbroken having the tournament canceled this year. I felt like I had something ripped away from me that I worked for and I earned and that I deserved. It's an immature reaction. 

https://www.trackwrestling.com/PortalPost.jsp?TIM=1599789661500&twSessionId=kaymibifma&postId=866421135

 

Validated - not enough champs at tourney time

• 1976 - 142lbs
• 1979 - 142lbs
• 1981 - 134lbs
• 1986 - 142lbs
• 1989 - 126lbs
• 1994 - 142lbs
• 1996 - 167lbs

[gimpeltf]

Not sure if this follows but in 1959 Lehigh's Ed Hamer (4th seed) beat Duane Murty Ok State (champ 1958 and top seed) and Tom Alberts Pitt (champ 1957 and 3rd seed)

[AuntAnnie]

Dake’s senior year (2013), 165 had 4 titles with 2 more to come, split between Dake and Taylor.
It also had a former finalist (Caldwell) who would make the finals again the next season. I would say that winning 165 that year was much harder than this year. Also, the top of the field was harder even if there were just two former champs that year as opposed to three this year.

[Tigerfan]

3 hours ago, AuntAnnie said:

Dake’s senior year (2013), 165 had 4 titles with 2 more to come, split between Dake and Taylor.
It also had a former finalist (Caldwell) who would make the finals again the next season. I would say that winning 165 that year was much harder than this year. Also, the top of the field was harder even if there were just two former champs that year as opposed to three this year.

By that logic, winning 184/197 during Cael’s reign would make those the toughest weights in history. The strength of a weight class is kinda the antithesis of just looking at the best 1 or 2 guys. 

[Eagle26]

21 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I don't think anybody wants to dog on that 2008 149lbs bracket.

The criteria asked wasn't about career accomplishments thereafter is all, just prior to.

Well, there were multiple people saying that the hype around that bracket was overblown. But yeah, it is not what the OP is talking about so we should stay on topic. And it appears to be a really good topic… I’m seeing lots of stuff thrown out here, but it seems only one other example of 3 PRIOR national champs in one bracket was the one mentioned from 1982. I would’ve thought it happened more often than that but I can’t think of any off the top of my head. So it’s a pretty historic weight class this year. 

[dragit]

On 11/26/2022 at 6:04 PM, Antitroll2828 said:

Agreed definitely overblown…2016 141 had Heil, gross , Ashnault all champs , then add in McKenna 3rd twice and 2nd, ..Meredith 3x AA 2nd 2x ..Kevin jack 4x AA , Micah Jordan 3x AA and ncaa finalist, a few other multiple time AAs as well …you can say that’s tougher than that 149 bracket too

I'd take that 149 bracket, which has unchallenged star power, but you're right, 2016 141 is a good underrated weight.  

PLUS:  Gross 141!!  Forgot about that.  That's a long way from 57 kg!  Man.

[dragit]

On 11/26/2022 at 6:04 PM, Antitroll2828 said:

 

Deleted - double post.

Edited November 29, 2022 by dragit

[jross]

2009 125lbs is another example of a third champ knocking off two previous champs.  Troy beat Paul and Angel, both 2-1

• Paul Donahoe - Nebraska - 2007 1st | 2008 2nd [2009 2nd]
• Angel Escobedo - Indian - 2008 1st | 2007 4th [2010 3rd, 2009 5th] 
• Troy Nickerson - Cornel - 2009 1st | 2008 3rd | 2007 2nd
• Anthony Robles - Arizona State [2009 4th, 2010 7th, 2011 1st]

2017 184lbs is another example that ended with its third champ (Bo) in the same bracket as two previous champs.  Emory Parker (Illinois) knocked Myles off early and Sammy Brooks (Iowa) beat Myles too.  Bo pinned his way to the finals, including Sammy Brooks, before beating Gabe 4-3.  

• Gabe Dean - Cornell - 2016 1st, 2015 1st, 2014 3rd [2017 2nd ]
• Myles Martin - The Ohio State - 2016 1st [2019 3rd, 2018 2nd, 2017 5th]
• Bo Nickal - Penn State - 2017 1st | 2016 2nd [2019 1st, 2018 1st]
• Drew Foster - Northern Iowa [2017 7th, 2019 1st]
• Mike Machiavello - NC State [2018 1st]

2018 125lbs is another example that ended with its third champ (Spencer) in the same bracket as two previous champs.  Nick knocked off Darian, Spencer pinned Nathan, and Spencer won the title over Nick by the score of 5-1.

• Nathan Tomasello - The Ohio State - 2017 3rd, 2016 3rd, 2015 1st [2018 3rd]
• Darian Cruz - Lehigh - 2017 1st, 2014 7th [2018 5th]
• Spencer Lee - Iowa - 2018 1st [2021 1st, 2019 1st], 
• Nick Suriano - Rutgers [2022 1st, 2021 1st, 2018 2nd]

 

Who will be the fourth champ at 165 lbs in 2023 that knocks off the three existing champs?