Socialized Health Care- Nuts and Bolts Discussion

[red viking]

To add to my comments above, this would NOT eliminate private health care. The govt should fund ALL basic health care, i.e. what is preventative and necessary. Not elective stuff. 

Nobody is trying to outlaw private health care. If a rich fat cat wants to pay above and beyond for private care or somebody wants an elective surgery, they can do that with private funds. 

It's very simple and works a lot better in other countries than our BS overpriced system. 

[JimmySpeaks]

Depends on what kind of universal healthcare you’re talking about. Theres Socialized Medicine like they have in the UK and for our veterans here in the US.  This is where the gov runs the hospitals and employs the doctors.  Go visit a privately funded hospital.  Then go visit a VA hospital.  Thats the difference in the care you’ll receive.  You’ll pay thru taxes to have “free” healthcare and with that the quality of facilities, services and doctors/nurses decreases with it.  Are VA’s terrible? No, but they’re far from what private care offers.  Then there’s countries like Canada where the government runs the national insurance plan and pays the bills. Most of the hospitals remain independent but that depends on where you live as some are run by the government. As has been discussed on here your wait times for some services will significantly increase and you may not be able to see your doctor.  There’s also countries that provide universal coverage through private funds but I have no idea where the money comes from for that.  Dental and Vision aren’t typically covered which is something I’ve never understood. IMO your eyes and mouth are body parts too.  They just require a different kind of doctor. That being said. Anything the government touches won’t be run efficiently or effectively.   Anyone that thinks it will is an idiot.  
 

[Offthemat]

If you think medical care is expensive and unresponsive now, wait till it’s free. 

[Doublehalf]

4 hours ago, jross said:

People commit fraud, and the governement is people.

This is an oversimplification and disengenuous and you know it.

There are insurance carriers denying people authorization to get care for potentially life threatening or life impacting diagnostic testing. Different parts of the country reimburse CPT codes at different rates. Managed care environments exits in regions where insurance carriers with little to know competition drive reimbursement to hospitals down because they can and it bankrupts medical facilities.

The amount and significance of the problems with the current system can't be overstated.

[Doublehalf]

35 minutes ago, JimmySpeaks said:

Depends on what kind of universal healthcare you’re talking about. Theres Socialized Medicine like they have in the UK and for our veterans here in the US.  This is where the gov runs the hospitals and employs the doctors.  Go visit a privately funded hospital.  Then go visit a VA hospital.  Thats the difference in the care you’ll receive.  You’ll pay thru taxes to have “free” healthcare and with that the quality of facilities, services and doctors/nurses decreases with it.  Are VA’s terrible? No, but they’re far from what private care offers.  Then there’s countries like Canada where the government runs the national insurance plan and pays the bills. Most of the hospitals remain independent but that depends on where you live as some are run by the government. As has been discussed on here your wait times for some services will significantly increase and you may not be able to see your doctor.  There’s also countries that provide universal coverage through private funds but I have no idea where the money comes from for that.  Dental and Vision aren’t typically covered which is something I’ve never understood. IMO your eyes and mouth are body parts too.  They just require a different kind of doctor. That being said. Anything the government touches won’t be run efficiently or effectively.   Anyone that thinks it will is an idiot.  
 

Jimmy- I'm being sincere when I say thank you for giving the most level headed response I've seen on here. While we may not agree on everything- this discourse is much better than the alternative which I too have been guilty of.

[Doublehalf]

26 minutes ago, Offthemat said:

If you think medical care is expensive and unresponsive now, wait till it’s free. 

It's not free if people are paying for it in a taxable form. My initial example showed how in many cases ot would be far less expensive . Working on the responsiveness and level of care should be the goal of solving the issue.

how we can put people on the moon but refuse to attempt to solve the healthcare problem is and should be infuriating to us all. It doesn't have to be one or the other as far as system. Just because government funded care has only partially worked in other countries, doesn't mean we can't figure it out here. Are we the greatest country or not after all? 
 

The problem with the US is we don't really hold our politicians accountable in my opinion in the way other countries do. 

[Doublehalf]

2 hours ago, Rassling said:

My Mom is 92 and I’ve attended all her doctor and hospital appointments over the last 20 years and I have seen first hand the creative theft that goes on between healthcare people and insurance companies.  

Whether it's the best can be debated but that isn't the point.

The point is there are serious issues with our current system and many people go bankrupt due to the system or can't afford the care so forego care altogether leading to unnecessary suffering. 
 

Just because something is "working" doesn't mean we shouldn't make it better. 

[Doublehalf]

2 hours ago, wrestlingguy said:

I want to be the guy getting the commission for selling the wire mesh coils that they bill $10K a coil for, and I needed 9 of them.

So what's interesting is most medical device companies have worked down the commmison on most of their sales rep jobs that benchmarks many mid tier roles at plan somewhere between $180k-$250k. 
 

There are group purchasing organizations that precipitate pricing and entire health systems jump onto those contracts which help to drive down the cost of devices and supplies within the health system for the commitment to buy through specific vendors. 
 

So to your point, the price of the coils the facilities are paying for are far lower than you would think due to the contract the hospital has with the vendor. Then they submit for the reimbursement at whatever the carrier sets because maybe in that area they are the major provider. The hospital is still getting a decent reimbursement but the patient is getting hit for more while the rep is making a small percentage due to the lower price of the contract and not making quite as much as you'd think. 
 

The one that makes out the most in this whole system are the insurance carriers who dictate what they choose to reimburse the hospital. 
 

Many talk about better care here- in an operating room in a hospital in an area where they get low reimbursments or have a lot of Medicaid patients: surgeons know the hospital is struggling and will use "less effective devices or methods" to complete surgery because administrators are coming down on them. So for those that think they are always getting the best care here, they certainly aren't, there is technology hospitals don't entertain because it eats to big a chunk out of their insurance reimbursement.

[red viking]

1 hour ago, JimmySpeaks said:

Depends on what kind of universal healthcare you’re talking about. Theres Socialized Medicine like they have in the UK and for our veterans here in the US.  This is where the gov runs the hospitals and employs the doctors.  Go visit a privately funded hospital.  Then go visit a VA hospital.  Thats the difference in the care you’ll receive.  You’ll pay thru taxes to have “free” healthcare and with that the quality of facilities, services and doctors/nurses decreases with it.  Are VA’s terrible? No, but they’re far from what private care offers.  Then there’s countries like Canada where the government runs the national insurance plan and pays the bills. Most of the hospitals remain independent but that depends on where you live as some are run by the government. As has been discussed on here your wait times for some services will significantly increase and you may not be able to see your doctor.  There’s also countries that provide universal coverage through private funds but I have no idea where the money comes from for that.  Dental and Vision aren’t typically covered which is something I’ve never understood. IMO your eyes and mouth are body parts too.  They just require a different kind of doctor. That being said. Anything the government touches won’t be run efficiently or effectively.   Anyone that thinks it will is an idiot.  
 

This would only fund very basic and essential healthcare, along with preventative care. 

Private insurance and doctors wouldn't disappear so that's just another BS lie and scare tactic by the wingers. If people want to pay out of their own pocket for "elite" or unnecessary procedures, nobody is proposing to stop that. 

[jross]

1 hour ago, Doublehalf said:

The amount and significance of the problems with the current system can't be overstated.

100% agree.  ^^^

RV's attempt to dismiss fraud as a consideration was dismissed in and of itself.  My point on fraud is that it doesn't go away when the government is involved. 

[jross]

The biggest problem is that people object to being lawfully forced to give without receiving an equivalent exchange.

[Lipdrag]

17 minutes ago, jross said:

The biggest problem is that people object to being lawfully forced to give without receiving an equivalent exchange.

Hence, all the socialized medicine folks have to do is form a voluntary mutual benefit society and start paying each others' bills.  Maybe call is a Medical Club with its own hospitals, network of providers, ERs, etc.  

"Lawfully forced without . . . equivalent exchange" is a logical impossibility.  There is no lawful forcing.  Taxation with representation within the constraints of constitutional restriction on government activities is as much "forcing" as can be valid and ethical.  Every other type of force is unlawful and stealing and abominable.

Aside - this is why deficit spending is so despicable.  We are taxing the future and they don't get to vote on it.  Horrible.

Edited Monday at 10:18 PM by Lipdrag

[ionel]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

This would only fund very basic and essential healthcare, along with preventative care. 

Private insurance and doctors wouldn't disappear so that's just another BS lie and scare tactic by the wingers. If people want to pay out of their own pocket for "elite" or unnecessary procedures, nobody is proposing to stop that. 

How do you define essential, preventive and unnecessary?

If an over weight fat cat red viking comes in to the doctor can he be told to go home, get on a diet, exercise and lose weight or should he get free GLP-1 meds?  

[mspart]

13 minutes ago, ionel said:

How do you define essential, preventive and unnecessary?

If an over weight fat cat red viking comes in to the doctor can he be told to go home, get on a diet, exercise and lose weight or should he get free GLP-1 meds?  

If he lives in Canada he will be given the choice to end his life.   

mspart

[JimmySpeaks]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

This would only fund very basic and essential healthcare, along with preventative care. 

 

Please explain exactly what this means. What exactly doesn’t qualify?

[JimmySpeaks]

1 hour ago, red viking said:

This would only fund very basic and essential healthcare, along with preventative care. 

Private insurance and doctors wouldn't disappear so that's just another BS lie and scare tactic by the wingers. If people want to pay out of their own pocket for "elite" or unnecessary procedures, nobody is proposing to stop that. 

There are very few private doctors in Canada.  Look it up.  

[jross]

A doctor came up to me excited about a new Maternity ward charting feature that displayed the lady's weight compared to a baseline over time.  He exclaimed: "Ladies can see for themself that they are fat and at risk." 
 

[red viking]

1 hour ago, JimmySpeaks said:

Please explain exactly what this means. What exactly doesn’t qualify?

Elective surgeries idiot. Like plastic surgery as one example. 

Again, u can always go pay for your corrupt private dr. 

[red viking]

1 hour ago, JimmySpeaks said:

There are very few private doctors in Canada.  Look it up.  

There are some, for the fat cats. But not a ton because 99% of the people are fine with what they got. 

[JimmySpeaks]

3 minutes ago, red viking said:

Elective surgeries idiot. Like plastic surgery as one example. 

Again, u can always go pay for your corrupt private dr. 

Not in Canada 

[JimmySpeaks]

2 minutes ago, red viking said:

There are some, for the fat cats. But not a ton because 99% of the people are fine with what they got. 

Proof?  

[red viking]

1 hour ago, ionel said:

How do you define essential, preventive and unnecessary?

If an over weight fat cat red viking comes in to the doctor can he be told to go home, get on a diet, exercise and lose weight or should he get free GLP-1 meds?  

Id say that if glp1 is cheaper than the patient having to be treated for obesity related diseases later on, let's do it. 

[JimmySpeaks]

4 minutes ago, red viking said:

Elective surgeries idiot. Like plastic surgery as one example. 

Again, u can always go pay for your corrupt private dr. 

Such anger tonight.  I may call my doctor tomorrow , get in the same day and have him wipe the smile off my face.  

[red viking]

Just now, JimmySpeaks said:

Proof?  

If there was a demand for lots of pvt doctors, they would have them. Its called capitalism. If the demand comes, then the supply will follow it. 

[JimmySpeaks]

2 minutes ago, red viking said:

If there was a demand for lots of pvt doctors, they would have them. It’s called capitalism. If the demand comes, then the supply will follow it. 

Exactly. The good doctors have left for the US where they can make money under capitalism.