U23 Attendance

[maligned]

2 hours ago, Caveira said:

I just googled it.   About 45-50% of Californias population is within a 4 hour drive to Vegas.  So in theory  more than all of wrestlers in pa (20k to 15k)

Southern Californians are notoriously fickle sports attendees. Too many other entertainment and outdoor options.

Pennsylvania, Cleveland/Columbus, Iowa City, maybe NJ could have drawn decent crowds. About 1500 just watched two solitary Final X series in a high school gym in Columbus. The star power on the US U23 roster and the novelty factor of a world-level event would have drawn elsewhere.

Vegas was never going to draw any fans for U23. Way too under the radar in an entertainment-bloated town. Not in a sports-watching, wrestling-watching hotbed region.

Worlds next year should be better because more diehards will be motivated to go make a vacation of it. But it still won't draw like it could if it were near people who more readily attend wrestling events.

[Caveira]

10 minutes ago, maligned said:

Southern Californians are notoriously fickle sports attendees. Too many other entertainment and outdoor options.

Pennsylvania, Cleveland/Columbus, Iowa City, maybe NJ could have drawn decent crowds. About 1500 just watched two solitary Final X series in a high school gym in Columbus. The star power on the US U23 roster and the novelty factor of a world-level event would have drawn elsewhere.

Vegas was never going to draw any fans for U23. Way too under the radar in an entertainment-bloated town. Not in a sports-watching, wrestling-watching hotbed region.

Worlds next year should be better because more diehards will be motivated to go make a vacation of it. But it still won't draw like it could if it were near people who more readily attend wrestling events.

The World Championship Outhouse Races in Virginia City, Nevada, drew More people.  And it was a few weeks ago.  

[Caveira]

[BruceyB]

49 minutes ago, Caveira said:

You're a funny guy. I don't even know what you're trying to say. Is it that U23s doesn't draw fans, period? That is doesn't matter if you put it in the heart of wrestling country, people still won't show up?

I will say that you are spot on with your comparison between SoCal and Pennsylvania though. I can't think of any better way to guess what kind of attendance U23s in Philadelphia would get than comparing the number of HS wrestlers in Pennsylvania to the population of SoCal that is 4 hours away from Vegas..

[Caveira]

14 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

You're a funny guy. I don't even know what you're trying to say. Is it that U23s doesn't draw fans, period? That is doesn't matter if you put it in the heart of wrestling country, people still won't show up?

I will say that you are spot on with your comparison between SoCal and Pennsylvania though. I can't think of any better way to guess what kind of attendance U23s in Philadelphia would get than comparing the number of HS wrestlers in Pennsylvania to the population of SoCal that is 4 hours away from Vegas..

That’s messenbrink’s gold medal match at u23s last year.   Conclusions can be drawn however people like.   Cardenas Silver / gold medal match from  the year before is available too but I think the conclusion is redundant.  A lot of Empty seats   

Also.  Pa is a huge state too.  It’s like a 7 hour drive from one end of the state to another.   Philadelphia is dead smack in the middle of the state right?  No it’s bottom corner 

There are ~12,000 total high school wrestlers in pa including women.    Only ~30% wrestle freestyle.   

of the 3,600 in the whole state who wrestle freestyle.  How many have sufficient interest to go watch uww u23s?   

Edited October 21 by Caveira

[RAFWiki]

Here's the problem - you had hundreds of wrestlers hanging around Las Vegas for a week with a lot of free time. 

UWW should have set up local media appearances for the top U23 stars. But unlike RAF, the wrestlers weren't getting paid to help promote the event, so they didn't bother with it.

There was like 4:1 more international press coverage of U23 results compared with American coverage. And the American news coverage was largely just podcasters and wrestling-specific news outlets.

[BruceyB]

14 minutes ago, Caveira said:

That’s messenbrink’s gold medal match at u23s last year.   Conclusions can be drawn however people like.   Cardenas Silver / gold medal match from  the year before is available too but I think the conclusion is redundant.  A lot of Empty seats   

Also.  Pa is a huge state too.  It’s like a 7 hour drive from one end of the state to another.   Philadelphia is dead smack in the middle of the state right?  No it’s bottom corner 

There are ~12,000 total high school wrestlers in pa including women.    Only ~30% wrestle freestyle.   

of the 3,600 in the whole state who wrestle freestyle.  How many have sufficient interest to go watch uww u23s?   

Yes, but New York city is less than 2 hours away. How many people live in New York?

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, BruceyB said:

Yes, but New York city is less than 2 hours away. How many people live in New York?

The real question is how many people live in New York that care about uww u23s.   
 

Also Cali has almost 4x the # of high school wrestlers vs New York 

[RAFWiki]

I think the only World Team member who could possibly attract large crowds on their own is Bo Bassett, and that's because Christians view him as a Tim Tebow-esque figure.

In the grand scheme of things, Bo eating losses at U23's doesn't matter for his brand since no one really saw it outside of the die-hard wrestling community. 

But he needs to win on a large platform to grow his brand. The international press doesn't give a shit about Bo winning NCAA championships, and that might be his ceiling for the next 4 years.

[BruceyB]

6 minutes ago, RAFWiki said:

I think the only World Team member who could possibly attract large crowds on their own is Bo Bassett, and that's because Christians view him as a Tim Tebow-esque figure.

I might just make this my sig. This is pure gold.

[Sulyvahn]

Stillwater hosted WNO. Attendance was atrocious. There was some event not that long ago hosted in Iowa (I can't remember what it was, but I know Spencer did not attend), also had abysmal attendance. 

These crowds you see at duals or state tournaments, not the same people who would attend a U23 event. A lot of attnedees in those crowds are just there to support their institution. They know there school is good at wrestling, so they show up. They don't care about wrestling at all besides that. Then you have the fans who maybe wrestled at states, then their sons did, and now they're hoping their grandkids will. They show up to the state tournament every year since there is a real connection. Absolutely no one has wrestled for the US national team. 

To top it off, it's U23s. The most redundant of all the age group tourneys. And it's right before seniors. Granted seniors is being held in Kazakhstan, so a lot of the American contingent that would have shown up to a Norway or Hungary wont be there.  

[Window12]

13 hours ago, Sulyvahn said:

 Granted seniors is being held in Kazakhstan, so a lot of the American contingent that would have shown up to a Norway or Hungary wont be there.  

So there a subset of American contingent that would readily go to Norway for senior worlds but not interested in U23 attendance in Las Vegas? Or is it the other way round- they already went to Las Vegas as they were not able to go to Kazakhstan for the senior worlds?

[Sulyvahn]

8 hours ago, Window12 said:

So there a subset of American contingent that would readily go to Norway for senior worlds but not interested in U23 attendance in Las Vegas? 

Yeah. Vegas worlds in 2015 had decent attendance. That wasn't too long ago. It makes sense. People would rather watch the best in the world trying their very best than an odd tournament that is kind of a C team or feels unimportant. I think if these were seniors and not age group, it would have been much better attended. 

8 hours ago, Window12 said:

Or is it the other way round- they already went to Las Vegas as they were not able to go to Kazakhstan for the senior worlds?

I think there are people who will go/went to neither who would have gone to a Norway or Croatia. They wont go to Kazahkstan because it's so far, hard to get to,  and in the middle of nowhere. They also didn't go to U23s because U23s aren't a draw in general.  I am not expecting a big American contigent at senior worlds. 

[RAFWiki]

Meanwhile, Bella Mir confirms that her and Kennedy Blades both pulled out of the Final X wrestle-off because neither wanted to wrestle in an empty high school gym for free:

[MPhillips]

Lawyers, Guns and Money

[Gene Mills Fan]

9 hours ago, RAFWiki said:

Meanwhile, Bella Mir confirms that her and Kennedy Blades both pulled out of the Final X wrestle-off because neither wanted to wrestle in an empty high school gym for free:

kind of a: lets do it later for money attitude?   

[BruceyB]

13 hours ago, Sulyvahn said:

I think there are people who will go/went to neither who would have gone to a Norway or Croatia. They wont go to Kazahkstan because it's so far, hard to get to,  and in the middle of nowhere. They also didn't go to U23s because U23s aren't a draw in general.  I am not expecting a big American contigent at senior worlds.

I would venture to say that virtually zero wrestling fans are travelling to Europe to watch the World Championships. TBH it seems like the UWW literally does not care if anyone comes to their events based on the show they put on. It's about the equivalent of a Saturday youth tournament. There is no fanfare, there is no showmanship, no celebration of the athletes. It looks like straight nuts and bolts as far as what the event offers. The only Americans traveling overseas to watch such a lackluster event would have to be family and friends of the athletes. 

Americans loved college wrestling. Speaking for myself, I like freestyle and the age group/senior championships, but I am simply not invested in the Senior level stuff like I am with the college season. The world championships are essentially a one off event that has little build up, little fan fare, and to be honest, little interest outside of our 10 reps. At NCAAs, I am excited to watch every finals match even if I'm not particularly a fan of either team represented because I know the wrestlers.. at Worlds, it's not very common that I am familiar/care who wins a final. I would be interested in Uguev vs Harutyunyan, but I'm also not blocking out time in my schedule to make sure I see it. If I'm home, I'll turn it on, if I'm not, I'll watch a replay later, nbd. I would never miss the NCAA finals.

[RAFWiki]

18 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Americans loved college wrestling. Speaking for myself, I like freestyle and the age group/senior championships, but I am simply not invested in the Senior level stuff like I am with the college season. 

I think people forget too that U23's and Worlds are simulcast on national television in other countries. Imagine if they were shown on ESPN in the US with an audience of a million+ people instead of a couple thousand Flo subscribers.

Iran and India's U23 teams were hailed upon return this week as national heroes, with hundreds of supporters greeting them at the airport when they landed. Has the US wrestling team ever received receptions like that after returning from an international tournament?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 10/20/2026 at 10:18 PM, Caveira said:

That’s messenbrink’s gold medal match at u23s last year.   Conclusions can be drawn however people like.   Cardenas Silver / gold medal match from  the year before is available too but I think the conclusion is redundant.  A lot of Empty seats   

Also.  Pa is a huge state too.  It’s like a 7 hour drive from one end of the state to another.   Philadelphia is dead smack in the middle of the state right?  No it’s bottom corner 

There are ~12,000 total high school wrestlers in pa including women.    Only ~30% wrestle freestyle.   

of the 3,600 in the whole state who wrestle freestyle.  How many have sufficient interest to go watch uww u23s?   

No wonder he was crying.  There was no one there!

[Caveira]

8 minutes ago, RAFWiki said:

I think people forget too that U23's and Worlds are simulcast on national television in other countries. Imagine if they were shown on ESPN in the US with an audience of a million+ people instead of a couple thousand Flo subscribers.

Iran and India's U23 teams were hailed upon return this week as national heroes, with hundreds of supporters greeting them at the airport when they landed. Has the US wrestling team ever received receptions like that after returning from an international tournament?

Would a million + watch.  No.    This is what we fail to see.  Or acknowledge.   If they thought a million plus or even a half million plus would watch it would be televised.   It simply isn’t popular enough for people to care.   $$$,$$$,$$$ is king 
 

yes ai … I don’t have these ratings memorized 
 

1.  Banana Ball (The Savannah Bananas)

• Viewership: 1.74 million unique viewers (with regular telecasts averaging 1.2 million viewers on ABC/ESPN networks)
• The Event: While technically a variation of baseball, Banana Ball strips away all traditional mainstream baseball rules in favor of a fast-paced, two-hour entertainment circus. Rules include a strict two-hour time limit, no bunting, batters being out if a fan catches a foul ball, and pitchers performing full dance routines before throwing. It has become the crown jewel of ESPN’s alternative sports programming block. [1, 2, 3]

 

2.  American Cornhole League (ACL) Pro Singles Finals

• Viewership: 1.04 million unique viewers
• The Event: What many consider a casual backyard tailgate game has evolved into a highly lucrative, cutthroat professional league on ESPN. The ACL Pro Singles Finals officially crossed the million-viewer threshold during "The Ocho" festivities, proving that high-stakes beanbag tossing commands massive consumer interest. [1, 2]

 

---

 

Honoring the "Almost Million" Tier

While the following events haven't individually cracked a 1.0 million average minute rating on a single broadcast, they anchor "ESPN8: The Ocho," which brings in a cumulative 10.9 million viewers over its annual multi-day run. These events drive massive viral loops and heavy multi-hundred-thousand live cable turnouts: [1, 2]

• Pillow Fight Championship (PFC): Averaging 449,000 viewers. This is pure, fast-paced professional combat where MMA fighters and athletes hit each other inside a ring with specialized, heavily-weighted nylon pillows. [1]
• World Axe & Knife Throwing Championship: Averaging 564,000 viewers. Precision targeting using hatchets and combat knives at high-production-value layouts. [1]
• World Table Hockey Championships: Averaging 501,000 viewers. The ultimate competitive upgrade to the mechanical rod-hockey arcade games of the 1980s. [1]
• Slippery Stairs: Highly viral event featured across ESPN prime-time programming blocks. It features competitors dressed in foam suits attempting to race up an incredibly steep staircase heavily coated in industrial slime and lubricants. [1, 2, 3]

[LJB]

https://uww.org/articles/wrestling-scores-443-engagement-growth-uww-makes-world-cships-debut

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/las-vegas-world-championships-most-watched-non-olympic-event-in-wrestling-history

[RAFWiki]

16 minutes ago, LJB said:

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/las-vegas-world-championships-most-watched-non-olympic-event-in-wrestling-history

Broadcasters from 16 countries also paid to show competition footage, providing an estimated worldwide reach of more than one billion.

2,000 American nerds watching on Flo, and 999,998,000 watching on TV in other countries

And that reflects potential reach and not actual viewership - but sure, let's limit U23's to Flo and their ~5,000 subscribers, and not a network like ESPN where several million people could access it instead

Edit: just realized this article is 11 years old

Edited October 22 by RAFWiki

[BruceyB]

33 minutes ago, RAFWiki said:

Iran and India's U23 teams were hailed upon return this week as national heroes, with hundreds of supporters greeting them at the airport when they landed. Has the US wrestling team ever received receptions like that after returning from an international tournament?

Nationalism is a hell of a thing.

Imagine how little you must have in your life if you're going to the airport to celebrate the U23 team as national heroes. TBH that is a scary thought.

[BruceyB]

3 minutes ago, RAFWiki said:

Broadcasters from 16 countries also paid to show competition footage, providing an estimated worldwide reach of more than one billion.

2,000 American nerds watching on Flo, and 999,998,000 watching on TV in other countries

And that reflects potential reach and not actual viewership - but sure, let's limit U23's to Flo and their ~5,000 subscribers, and not a network like ESPN where several million people could access it instead

Could access is beyond irrelevant here. Let's be clear, there is a reason that flo wins the bids for the rights to these events. It's because ESPN has no desire to buy the rights to an event that no one is watching. I would bet money that Cornhole gets better viewership than any international wrestling event outside of the Olympics.

[RAFWiki]

1 minute ago, BruceyB said:

Nationalism is a hell of a thing.

Imagine how little you must have in your life if you're going to the airport to celebrate the U23 team as national heroes. TBH that is a scary thought.

People caring about a sports team is a scary thought?

Why do NFL and NCAA football teams routinely have hundreds of fans greet them at airports when they return from an away game? They care.

America is shit at marketing wrestling to the general public, and the Flo contract is a big part of that. You're locking the sport inside a walled garden.