Vega... PFP #2?

[Simpleman424]

Flo reposted their Top 10 on X and visually seeing it still makes me shake my head…

[Simpleman424]

I’ll throw my Top 10 out there…it was tougher than I thought but I think more accurate than Flo’s for what we’re going to see this year…

1. MM
2. Forrest
3. McEnnelly
4. Barr
5. Bassett
6. Vega
7. Duke
8. Robideau
9. Henson
10. Blaze/Davino

[SEKPoke]

Sinclair??

[Simpleman424]

25 minutes ago, SEKPoke said:

Sinclair??

Yea he’s a tough one to place…but I think he’s just off the top 10. Im just not as high on 184 on some I guess, besides Max apparently. Picked him preseason to win that weight so I’m sticking with him. 

[ionel]

1 hour ago, Simpleman424 said:

I’ll throw my Top 10 out there…it was tougher than I thought but I think more accurate than Flo’s for what we’re going to see this year…

1. MM
2. Forrest
3. McEnnelly
4. Barr
5. Bassett
6. Vega
7. Duke
8. Robideau
9. Henson
10. Blaze/Davino

Don't ya think that #1 deserves to have his name spelled out?  Wanta give it a try?  

[BruceyB]

3 hours ago, Simpleman424 said:

I’ll throw my Top 10 out there…it was tougher than I thought but I think more accurate than Flo’s for what we’re going to see this year…

1. MM
2. Forrest
3. McEnnelly
4. Barr
5. Bassett
6. Vega
7. Duke
8. Robideau
9. Henson
10. Blaze/Davino

Are these rankings based on who you think is the best wrestler or based on results?

I don't know how Bassett would be in the P4P at this point when he is 1-3 against someone in his weight this year and whose best win against a college wrestler in folkstyle is Joy.

I think it's hard to put McEnelly above Barr or Vega considering he lost to both Sinclair and Welsh last season and Vega's win over Mendez accompanied by his 3 wins over Hardy is a better resume than McEnelly has at this point.

Like the call or dislike the call, you can't put Duke above Robideau. The match was so close that while I admit, I give a slight edge towards Duke in a rematch, it's a highly competitive match that Landon could definitely win. The semis shouldn't be ignored because it was controversial. Either way it was an OT match that looked very even up until that point.

Blaze and Davino shouldn't be sharing a spot when Davino beat him 2-3 times and Blaze lost 5-0 to Seidel. Hell, I'd consider putting Seidel above both of 'em.

Henson seems like an odd one to have in the top 10 coming off of a redshirt and 2nd place finish. I don't necessarily disagree and I think I'm higher on Henson than a lot of people, but I just ran through who I would have above him in my head and I also had him at #9, so forget about it!

Lilledahl should probably be in the top 7 considering that he was technically undefeated last year and won NCAAs. He doesn't get the credit since his field isn't as strong as others, but he wins.

Just my thoughts on it. I appreciate you posting and giving me something to really think about and respond to.

 

[BruceyB]

2 hours ago, ionel said:

Don't ya think that #1 deserves to have his name spelled out?  Wanta give it a try?  

@MPhillips what's Unc going to do around here once Messandbrink graduates?

[Simpleman424]

6 hours ago, BruceyB said:

Are these rankings based on who you think is the best wrestler or based on results?

I don't know how Bassett would be in the P4P at this point when he is 1-3 against someone in his weight this year and whose best win against a college wrestler in folkstyle is Joy.

I think it's hard to put McEnelly above Barr or Vega considering he lost to both Sinclair and Welsh last season and Vega's win over Mendez accompanied by his 3 wins over Hardy is a better resume than McEnelly has at this point.

Like the call or dislike the call, you can't put Duke above Robideau. The match was so close that while I admit, I give a slight edge towards Duke in a rematch, it's a highly competitive match that Landon could definitely win. The semis shouldn't be ignored because it was controversial. Either way it was an OT match that looked very even up until that point.

Blaze and Davino shouldn't be sharing a spot when Davino beat him 2-3 times and Blaze lost 5-0 to Seidel. Hell, I'd consider putting Seidel above both of 'em.

Henson seems like an odd one to have in the top 10 coming off of a redshirt and 2nd place finish. I don't necessarily disagree and I think I'm higher on Henson than a lot of people, but I just ran through who I would have above him in my head and I also had him at #9, so forget about it!

Lilledahl should probably be in the top 7 considering that he was technically undefeated last year and won NCAAs. He doesn't get the credit since his field isn't as strong as others, but he wins.

Just my thoughts on it. I appreciate you posting and giving me something to really think about and respond to.

 

These are based on who I think will be better this year, previous results were considered but not the overarching dictator. 

I’ll put it out there now and say Bassett is probably going to win 149 this year. Which this time last year I was saying he’d probably make the back end of the podium…but he’s just elevated. I don’t think there’s any other way to say in and he’s been in that VT room with even better training partners. 

I would put Sinclair above Welsh but that’s a stylistic call…and it is close between Max and Aedon but if you need a tie breaker Max got it done when he needed to most. 

Barr is up as high for a guy not in a demanding weight class…I just think other guys earned it more ahead of him.

Vega I just don’t like his style at all. Phenomenal at how he wrestles but not as well rounded as the others and honestly I thought about putting him lower.

Yea about Duke…that dudes an absolute bandsaw. The only guy I saw and felt bad for Cannon (who bless his heart had to wrestle him twice that tournament). Ok State had a good plan going into the match (Same with Vega) and they snuck one out while Duke was a little off. In a series out of 10 who do I think wins that match…it’s Duke. 

Not to make excuses for Blaze but he did have the flu at NCAAs. But he and Davino split the dual and B1G. Both can hang with Jax and Seidel could not…don’t get me wrong Seidel is probably in my top 15 but not ahead of these guys right now.

Im right there with you about Henson…at least I’m not alone on the island! Lol

Yea I’m not a LL guy…I think more guys can take him into closer matches than I would like. But would have to drop him somewhere Top 15. I’m just not impressed with him…which I know seems weird to say about an undefeated NCAA Champion.

i do have a feeling I’m forgetting someone though and it would mess my whole list up!

[Simpleman424]

9 hours ago, ionel said:

Don't ya think that #1 deserves to have his name spelled out?  Wanta give it a try?  

Nah…he’s the only one not spelled out and he’s the only one in a league of his own…

[MPhillips]

7 hours ago, BruceyB said:

@MPhillips what's Unc going to do around here once Messandbrink graduates?

I just hope the kid stops wrestling altogether.

[Air_Thurman]

1 hour ago, Simpleman424 said:

These are based on who I think will be better this year, previous results were considered but not the overarching dictator. 

I’ll put it out there now and say Bassett is probably going to win 149 this year. Which this time last year I was saying he’d probably make the back end of the podium…but he’s just elevated. I don’t think there’s any other way to say in and he’s been in that VT room with even better training partners. 

I would put Sinclair above Welsh but that’s a stylistic call…and it is close between Max and Aedon but if you need a tie breaker Max got it done when he needed to most. 

Barr is up as high for a guy not in a demanding weight class…I just think other guys earned it more ahead of him.

Vega I just don’t like his style at all. Phenomenal at how he wrestles but not as well rounded as the others and honestly I thought about putting him lower.

Yea about Duke…that dudes an absolute bandsaw. The only guy I saw and felt bad for Cannon (who bless his heart had to wrestle him twice that tournament). Ok State had a good plan going into the match (Same with Vega) and they snuck one out while Duke was a little off. In a series out of 10 who do I think wins that match…it’s Duke. 

Not to make excuses for Blaze but he did have the flu at NCAAs. But he and Davino split the dual and B1G. Both can hang with Jax and Seidel could not…don’t get me wrong Seidel is probably in my top 15 but not ahead of these guys right now.

Im right there with you about Henson…at least I’m not alone on the island! Lol

Yea I’m not a LL guy…I think more guys can take him into closer matches than I would like. But would have to drop him somewhere Top 15. I’m just not impressed with him…which I know seems weird to say about an undefeated NCAA Champion.

i do have a feeling I’m forgetting someone though and it would mess my whole list up!

I think Duke/Rob is super close. It always cracks me though when someone ranks the guy who won the real match lower because he loses the hypothetical match. 

You can not like his style but the hand waving of a true freshman national championship who wasn't taken down and has wins over Mendez, Hardy and Echmendia is crazy. 

Edited September 11 by Air_Thurman
shorten

[Simpleman424]

25 minutes ago, Air_Thurman said:

I think Duke/Rob is super close. It always cracks me though when someone ranks the guy who won the real match lower because he loses the hypothetical match. 

You can not like his style but the hand waving of a true freshman national championship who wasn't taken down and has wins over Mendez, Hardy and Echmendia is crazy. 

I think it’s super close to, that’s why I have them back to back. One could wave top a prediction and say he beat him in OT just as easily as one could admit he got caught lacking and honestly was out coached. You think he’ll continue to not wrestle to his standard and be out coached and I’ll say it was one match and give credit where credit is due. I think Duke is a slightly better wrestler on a given day but clearly LR can pull out a win under the right circumstances.

Well it’s America so I can do whatever I like…and Vega was phenomenal wrestling his style of match last year but he is not as well rounded on others on the list and I still put him at 6. He’ll get figured out and we’ll see how he adjust…

[Air_Thurman]

5 minutes ago, Simpleman424 said:

I think it’s super close to, that’s why I have them back to back. One could wave top a prediction and say he beat him in OT just as easily as one could admit he got caught lacking and honestly was out coached. You think he’ll continue to not wrestle to his standard and be out coached and I’ll say it was one match and give credit where credit is due. I think Duke is a slightly better wrestler on a given day but clearly LR can pull out a win under the right circumstances.

Well it’s America so I can do whatever I like…and Vega was phenomenal wrestling his style of match last year but he is not as well rounded on others on the list and I still put him at 6. He’ll get figured out and we’ll see how he adjust…

I'm not trying to predict what will happen going forward with Duke and LR. I just put more weight into actual results than who wins the hypothetical 10-match series. Saying LR can win under the right circumstances is just a weird way to phrase it. The right circumstance being the NCAA semis? 

Vega isn't as well rounded as most on the list but he was also a true freshman. His defensive ability might be the single most elite trait on the list (arguably). Very few wrestlers are bonusing everyone they wrestle as a true freshman. Vega is eventually going to lose that being said I'm not sure he is going to get figured out. Stud veterans with elite coaching staffs like Hardy, Mendez and Ech had all season to figure out Vega and they couldn't. Hardy and Ech had multiple cracks at him. Mendez was considered one of the top 3 guys in college wrestling until he wrestled Vega. There aren't many guys in college wrestling with better wins than Vega. 

 

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 hours ago, Simpleman424 said:

Barr is up as high for a guy not in a demanding weight class…I just think other guys earned it more ahead of him.

 

Barr is so good that he almost made a world team that he didn't try out for at a weight he has never wrestled!

[Simpleman424]

1 minute ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Barr is so good that he almost made a world team that he didn't try out for at a weight he has never wrestled!

Thats true and it made me laugh a little…

[Simpleman424]

14 minutes ago, Air_Thurman said:

I'm not trying to predict what will happen going forward with Duke and LR. I just put more weight into actual results than who wins the hypothetical 10-match series. Saying LR can win under the right circumstances is just a weird way to phrase it. The right circumstance being the NCAA semis? 

Vega isn't as well rounded as most on the list but he was also a true freshman. His defensive ability might be the single most elite trait on the list (arguably). Very few wrestlers are bonusing everyone they wrestle as a true freshman. Vega is eventually going to lose that being said I'm not sure he is going to get figured out. Stud veterans with elite coaching staffs like Hardy, Mendez and Ech had all season to figure out Vega and they couldn't. Hardy and Ech had multiple cracks at him. Mendez was considered one of the top 3 guys in college wrestling until he wrestled Vega. There aren't many guys in college wrestling with better wins than Vega. 

 

The right circumstances as in catching Duke in an off moment and again I think coaching had a bit to do with that one. Ok State did a phenomenal job coaching their guys throughout this tournament and making adjustments…I just tend to think LR was a benefactor of that. LR wasn’t particularly dominant the whole tournament…he went 5-1 and 7-3 to #28 and #21 seeds before squeaking by the field. But look at Dukes tournament…basically murdered people outside of that one slip up…and that’s who he more consistently proven to be. He might have even overlooked LR and was thinking finals already…either way bad mistake. 
 

I get it people want Vega to be that dude…I just don’t think he is. Hardy was no where near the Hardy were use to this year…anyone being honest would admit that. Jesse (staff) goofed up…Jesse like you said is a top 3 type guy. Vega isn’t…he wrestled a style that was able to get an upset. Jesse would adjust. Echemendia is just never going to be that guy…he’s tough but no.

[Air_Thurman]

7 minutes ago, Simpleman424 said:

The right circumstances as in catching Duke in an off moment and again I think coaching had a bit to do with that one. Ok State did a phenomenal job coaching their guys throughout this tournament and making adjustments…I just tend to think LR was a benefactor of that. LR wasn’t particularly dominant the whole tournament…he went 5-1 and 7-3 to #28 and #21 seeds before squeaking by the field. But look at Dukes tournament…basically murdered people outside of that one slip up…and that’s who he more consistently proven to be. He might have even overlooked LR and was thinking finals already…either way bad mistake. 
 

I get it people want Vega to be that dude…I just don’t think he is. Hardy was no where near the Hardy were use to this year…anyone being honest would admit that. Jesse (staff) goofed up…Jesse like you said is a top 3 type guy. Vega isn’t…he wrestled a style that was able to get an upset. Jesse would adjust. Echemendia is just never going to be that guy…he’s tough but no.

I've never heard someone use the Penn State staff as a negative against a Penn State wrestler. All this comes across as being impressed with guys who lose close matches more than the guys who won the close matches. Vega and LR have a terrible record in hypothetical matchups and rematches but somehow not in the real ones. 

Edited September 11 by Air_Thurman

[Simpleman424]

21 minutes ago, Air_Thurman said:

I've never heard someone use the Penn State staff as a negative against a Penn State wrestler. All this comes across as being impressed with guys who lose close matches more than the guys who won the close matches. Vega and LR have a terrible record in hypothetical matchups and rematches but somehow not in the real ones. 

Well as much as you’re trying to make me, and I feel a little gross doing it, I’m not typically a PSU defender but yea they dropped the ball.

i would also take the criticism more serious if it weren’t just Ok State guys you’re arguing for…

Edited September 11 by Simpleman424
accidental submission

[BruceyB]

2 hours ago, Simpleman424 said:

These are based on who I think will be better this year, previous results were considered but not the overarching dictator. 

I’ll put it out there now and say Bassett is probably going to win 149 this year. Which this time last year I was saying he’d probably make the back end of the podium…but he’s just elevated. I don’t think there’s any other way to say in and he’s been in that VT room with even better training partners. 

I would put Sinclair above Welsh but that’s a stylistic call…and it is close between Max and Aedon but if you need a tie breaker Max got it done when he needed to most. 

Barr is up as high for a guy not in a demanding weight class…I just think other guys earned it more ahead of him.

Vega I just don’t like his style at all. Phenomenal at how he wrestles but not as well rounded as the others and honestly I thought about putting him lower.

Yea about Duke…that dudes an absolute bandsaw. The only guy I saw and felt bad for Cannon (who bless his heart had to wrestle him twice that tournament). Ok State had a good plan going into the match (Same with Vega) and they snuck one out while Duke was a little off. In a series out of 10 who do I think wins that match…it’s Duke. 

Not to make excuses for Blaze but he did have the flu at NCAAs. But he and Davino split the dual and B1G. Both can hang with Jax and Seidel could not…don’t get me wrong Seidel is probably in my top 15 but not ahead of these guys right now.

Im right there with you about Henson…at least I’m not alone on the island! Lol

Yea I’m not a LL guy…I think more guys can take him into closer matches than I would like. But would have to drop him somewhere Top 15. I’m just not impressed with him…which I know seems weird to say about an undefeated NCAA Champion.

i do have a feeling I’m forgetting someone though and it would mess my whole list up!

So, it seems to me that your list is more of a top 10 wrestling prospects type of list rather than a P4P based on your criteria. If you're going to selectively ignore results that actually happened in favor of what you predict will happen if they wrestle again, then that's a very different sort of ranking altogether from what Flo does with the P4P.

As far as personal feelings about guys; I'm with you on LL. I'll never be a fan of/super high on guys who seem more concerned with winning the match than actually wrestling (it's different at NCAAs when the only thing that matters is getting your hand raised, but if this is the approach you take to every high level match, I'm out). It's been proven that you can have a lot of success wrestling this way, but I just don't like it and I can't relate to the approach. It's why I can't stand watching any of the guys at 125 when they face top 10 competition, Blaze (his main tactic at Final X was finger fighting to limit the amount of wrestling that could actually take place), Ferrari, Welsh, Merrill (although I'm expecting to see more output from him this year), and so on.

Barr is elite and even though 197 was terrible last year, he didn't have a competitive match all season. 

Your comment about feeling bad for Cannon I completely agree with. I would probably put Brandon Cannon as one of my top 5 favorite guys right now to watch in NCAA wrestling because he is the opposite of the guys I mentioned above, he can't help himself but to continue to attack even when it's probably not the ideal tactic, but I love it. Watching him, to put it bluntly, get massacred by Duke twice was pretty sad to see. However, Cannon can let matches unravel on him and get ugly. His freshmen year he got majored by Paniro Johnson of all people (at 165!), majored by Tommy Askey, majored by Kasak, and lost 11-6 to Zerban. When he loses, it can get ugly.

And finally, Vega. I am really torn here. On one hand, I completely agree with you about his style and how effective that will be up a weight class. On the other hand, any true freshmen that puts together a resume like Sergio did is incredible. If we just assume he has the average improvement of guys from their first to second year in college, he is going to be a on a different level than he was this past season.

[Air_Thurman]

38 minutes ago, Simpleman424 said:

Well as much as you’re trying to make me, and I feel a little gross doing it, I’m not typically a PSU defender but yea they dropped the ball.

i would also take the criticism more serious if it weren’t just Ok State guys you’re arguing for…

100% an OSU homer but the guys I'm advocating for are national champions. I wouldn't have Vega in my top 3. Having him 6 and wanting him even lower is just not based on anything that has happened on the mat. Same with LR, I'm not sure where you rank him. He is below a lot of guys. Having him below the guy he beat isn't based on anything we've actually seen on the mat.

I don't think it makes someone a homer to say results matter in P4P rankings. P4P rankings are based on results and resumes. This started as criticism towards Flo. Flo shouldn't use vibes for the P4P rankings. 

Edited September 11 by Air_Thurman

[Simpleman424]

31 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

So, it seems to me that your list is more of a top 10 wrestling prospects type of list rather than a P4P based on your criteria. If you're going to selectively ignore results that actually happened in favor of what you predict will happen if they wrestle again, then that's a very different sort of ranking altogether from what Flo does with the P4P.

As far as personal feelings about guys; I'm with you on LL. I'll never be a fan of/super high on guys who seem more concerned with winning the match than actually wrestling (it's different at NCAAs when the only thing that matters is getting your hand raised, but if this is the approach you take to every high level match, I'm out). It's been proven that you can have a lot of success wrestling this way, but I just don't like it and I can't relate to the approach. It's why I can't stand watching any of the guys at 125 when they face top 10 competition, Blaze (his main tactic at Final X was finger fighting to limit the amount of wrestling that could actually take place), Ferrari, Welsh, Merrill (although I'm expecting to see more output from him this year), and so on.

Barr is elite and even though 197 was terrible last year, he didn't have a competitive match all season. 

Your comment about feeling bad for Cannon I completely agree with. I would probably put Brandon Cannon as one of my top 5 favorite guys right now to watch in NCAA wrestling because he is the opposite of the guys I mentioned above, he can't help himself but to continue to attack even when it's probably not the ideal tactic, but I love it. Watching him, to put it bluntly, get massacred by Duke twice was pretty sad to see. However, Cannon can let matches unravel on him and get ugly. His freshmen year he got majored by Paniro Johnson of all people (at 165!), majored by Tommy Askey, majored by Kasak, and lost 11-6 to Zerban. When he loses, it can get ugly.

And finally, Vega. I am really torn here. On one hand, I completely agree with you about his style and how effective that will be up a weight class. On the other hand, any true freshmen that puts together a resume like Sergio did is incredible. If we just assume he has the average improvement of guys from their first to second year in college, he is going to be a on a different level than he was this past season.

Well yea they’re might top 10 guys going into the season because I think they’re the top P4P guys in the sport. And I don’t want it to sound like I’m just throwing out results without consideration…I’m just saying I don’t live in a one match world. I think I’ve been pretty fair and reasonable in why I put them ahead. 
 

I appreciate the reply for sure. Glad we agree on so much!

Edited September 11 by Simpleman424

[BruceyB]

40 minutes ago, Simpleman424 said:

The right circumstances as in catching Duke in an off moment and again I think coaching had a bit to do with that one.

What is an "off moment" and why does Duke get the benefit of the doubt? Just because he can dominate guys that he is clearly superior to doesn't mean he is great at winning matches that are won in the margins.

And I have to agree with @Air_Thurman here. The #1 thing talked about when it comes to PSU at the NCAA tournament is that they are by far and away the most consistent performers and their record in the semis is completely absurd. If anything, I would say the fact that Duke did lose in the semis despite the PSU stats is more damning than excusable. It's very hard for me to accept an excuse that blames by far and away the most successful coaching staff in this century. It wasn't exactly a scenario like the Ohio State coaches challenge in the Cannon vs Fish match at 2025 NCAAs where a coaches decision completely changed the match and directly lost their wrestler the match (not a shot at you, just a coincidence that the most direct correlation between a match result and coaching decision happened to be tOSU).

If you simply said that PJ got hosed and should have been awarded the takedown and the win, and that the result is an inaccurate reflection of who actually won the match, I would be more inclined to accept that argument than blaming an "off moment" or bad circumstances.

[Simpleman424]

Alright outside of perfection expectations and a guy can’t possibly just rise to an occasion and beat someone “better” than them…I’m simply stating Duke is a better all around wrestler than LR and Mendez is a better wrestler than Vega. You say “Tony (cause that’s my name), paycheck on the line, who do you think wins this matchup most and is therefore the better wrestler?” That’s my guys. It’s not a knock on the Ok State guys, just an acknowledgment top P4P guys can lose a match in OT/SV to another top P4P guy and actually be better them more times than not…

Edited September 11 by Simpleman424

[boconnell]

2 hours ago, Simpleman424 said:

I think it’s super close to, that’s why I have them back to back. One could wave top a prediction and say he beat him in OT just as easily as one could admit he got caught lacking and honestly was out coached. You think he’ll continue to not wrestle to his standard and be out coached and I’ll say it was one match and give credit where credit is due. I think Duke is a slightly better wrestler on a given day but clearly LR can pull out a win under the right circumstances.

Well it’s America so I can do whatever I like…and Vega was phenomenal wrestling his style of match last year but he is not as well rounded on others on the list and I still put him at 6. He’ll get figured out and we’ll see how he adjust…

Your comments on Vega remain weirdly biased.  The not well rounded thing is silly.  He was fantastic on top and bottom and won multiple matches there.  He repeatedly beat returning finalist Hardy by initiating his own offense.  Hardy is super tough to finish on and Vega finished shots on him multiple times.  He beat Mendez with counter offense.  He won matches multiple ways.  You either didn't watch or ignored it because your feelings are hurt.  

Ranking him 6th is fine.  That's an opinion and not a crazy one.  All of these guys are excellent and 6th is a great wrestler.  But pretending he's not well rounded is just making stuff up.  

[MPhillips]