Jon_Kozak Posted October 8 Posted October 8 2 hours ago, LJB said: leg grabbing matches can not end 1-1 by rule... i watched that match and it was a total breakdown in officiating procedure... the last time i actually took points scored data in medal matches at worlds, greco scored on average more points per match than free... this is a perception problem that exists mostly in america because of ignorance... you 100% just hate on greco and using points scored as a some sort of justification for that stance is silly at best... just be honest... You are wrong - matches in freestyle can end 1-1, it's rare but it happens once at almost every tournament. It's also not a perception problem or silly, and the fact that you can't acknowledge that it's a problem shows your bias far more than it shows mine.
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 20 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said: You are wrong - matches in freestyle can end 1-1, it's rare but it happens once at almost every tournament. It's also not a perception problem or silly, and the fact that you can't acknowledge that it's a problem shows your bias far more than it shows mine. obviously they can because they have, duh... but it is a total breakdown in officiating if they do... of course it is perception... an arbitrary value or number of points does not equate to anything except somebodies perception of what has occurred... i have had to listen to you try to call greco and it is clear your perception is nothing is happening even though a ton was actually going on... you just do not care to understand it or even give the vaguest notion of trying... whatever... it does not make you unique at all...
Jon_Kozak Posted October 8 Posted October 8 1 hour ago, LJB said: an arbitrary value or number of points does not equate to anything except somebodies perception of what has occurred... Referencing a 1-1 final score is not an "arbitrary value" - it illustrates exactly my point. Greco wrestlers at the highest level are so good at holding position, handfighting, etc...that "exciting wrestling" doesn't happen. This is an expected and realized outcome for a ruleset that eliminates attacking half the body.
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 3 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said: Referencing a 1-1 final score is not an "arbitrary value" - it illustrates exactly my point. Greco wrestlers at the highest level are so good at holding position, handfighting, etc...that "exciting wrestling" doesn't happen. This is an expected and realized outcome for a ruleset that eliminates attacking half the body. "exciting wrestling" is perception again... you don't see it because you refuse to see it... i have seen many 1-1 greco matches that had an incredible amount of action and excitement... i just do not rely on an arbitrary value to tell me something has happened... just say you don't like greco and be done with it without some made up justification for your opinion...
Caveira Posted October 8 Posted October 8 (edited) 13 minutes ago, LJB said: "exciting wrestling" is perception again... you don't see it because you refuse to see it... i have seen many 1-1 greco matches that had an incredible amount of action and excitement... i just do not rely on an arbitrary value to tell me something has happened... just say you don't like greco and be done with it without some made up justification for your opinion... Professional European soccer has more scoring Edited October 8 by Caveira
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 7 minutes ago, Caveira said: Professional European soccer has more scoring an the typical american hates soccer even though it is far and away the most popular sport on the planet... dummy...
Jon_Kozak Posted October 8 Posted October 8 1 hour ago, LJB said: just say you don't like greco and be done with it without some made up justification for your opinion... Match scores aren't a made-up justification, and you ignoring data again just shows your bias. There were a total of 12 matches that ended 1-1, 2-1, or 2-0 in freestyle last year at Worlds. There were 32 in Greco. How do you explain that difference? You can say that a lack of scoring isn't ALWAYS a metric of a lack of action in a match. Sure, there are outliers. But most of the time, when a match is low-scoring, it's boring.
Caveira Posted October 8 Posted October 8 (edited) 1 hour ago, LJB said: an the typical american hates soccer even though it is far and away the most popular sport on the planet... dummy... you see Americans can not support a sport and the world tv:streaming ratings can be high somehow. Weird it isn’t that way for Greco when “the rest of the world likes Greco”. Edited October 8 by Caveira
1032004 Posted October 8 Posted October 8 6 hours ago, LJB said: leg grabbing matches can not end 1-1 by rule... i watched that match and it was a total breakdown in officiating procedure... 3 hours ago, LJB said: obviously they can because they have, duh... but it is a total breakdown in officiating if they do... What is the rule that the refs aren’t following when this happens?
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 43 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said: Match scores aren't a made-up justification, and you ignoring data again just shows your bias. There were a total of 12 matches that ended 1-1, 2-1, or 2-0 in freestyle last year at Worlds. There were 32 in Greco. How do you explain that difference? You can say that a lack of scoring isn't ALWAYS a metric of a lack of action in a match. Sure, there are outliers. But most of the time, when a match is low-scoring, it's boring. by your rational, every wrestling match is boring because they score a fraction of points as compared to literally any basketball game...
dragit Posted October 8 Posted October 8 30 minutes ago, LJB said: by your rational, every wrestling match is boring because they score a fraction of points as compared to literally any basketball game... 8 wrestling matches in the 48 minutes of a basketball game.
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 30 minutes ago, dragit said: 8 wrestling matches in the 48 minutes of a basketball game. should wrestling institute a mandatory 4 second shot clock? that would definitely mean more points and therefore equal less boring, right? i like where your head is at sparky!!!
Jon_Kozak Posted October 8 Posted October 8 1 hour ago, LJB said: by your rational, every wrestling match is boring because they score a fraction of points as compared to literally any basketball game... Clearly not my rationale. You can use point-scoring analysis to compare freestyle and greco because they have almost identical scoring rules. If you love Greco and think it's exciting, help me understand what I'm missing in these 1-1 and 2-1 matches. I want to love Greco. I want it to be exciting. I have incredible respect for the work Greco wrestlers put in and the talent they possess. But to me, there's a real problem with the product on the mat, and I know many share this sentiment. UWW recognizes this, and it's the reason they've played around with so many rule changes in the past 10 years.
The Kid Posted October 8 Posted October 8 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said: Clearly not my rationale. You can use point-scoring analysis to compare freestyle and greco because they have almost identical scoring rules. If you love Greco and think it's exciting, help me understand what I'm missing in these 1-1 and 2-1 matches. I want to love Greco. I want it to be exciting. I have incredible respect for the work Greco wrestlers put in and the talent they possess. But to me, there's a real problem with the product on the mat, and I know many share this sentiment. UWW recognizes this, and it's the reason they've played around with so many rule changes in the past 10 years. Go to your local freestyle / greco club an give it a go. You will either love it or get bounced on your head. Maybe even break a rib or dislocate your shoulder. You will gain an appreciation for it. I guarantee it. Edited October 8 by The Kid
Simpleman424 Posted October 8 Posted October 8 9 hours ago, LJB said: folk rewards not wrestling... that is a rule set problem not a wrestling problem... free fixed that problem by adding a step out rule that rewards actual wrestling and not backing up out of bounds... an upper body focus wrestling style can win international golds and NCAA championships as evidenced by that is actually has... just because american kids are taught to back up and their best shot being a dive in and pray for a scramble as an effective attack is again a rule problem and not a wrestling problem.... the last time i actually took points scored data in medal matches at worlds, greco scored on average more points per match than free... this is a perception problem that exists mostly in america because of ignorance... you 100% just hate on greco and using points scored as a some sort of justification for that stance is silly at best... just be honest... ANNND…any point you were trying to make was discredited in the first four words….
Jon_Kozak Posted October 8 Posted October 8 4 minutes ago, The Kid said: Go to your local freestyle / greco club an give it a go. You will either love it or get bounced on your head. Maybe even break a rib or dislocated your shoulder. I'm a 37-year-old dad with 4 kids, I have no desire (or time) to get bounced on my head lol 1
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 8 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said: Clearly not my rationale. You can use point-scoring analysis to compare freestyle and greco because they have almost identical scoring rules. If you love Greco and think it's exciting, help me understand what I'm missing in these 1-1 and 2-1 matches. I want to love Greco. I want it to be exciting. I have incredible respect for the work Greco wrestlers put in and the talent they possess. But to me, there's a real problem with the product on the mat, and I know many share this sentiment. UWW recognizes this, and it's the reason they've played around with so many rule changes in the past 10 years. folk wrestling has had more rule changes per year than free or greco for forever... that can not even be argued... i feel like you are reaching here at the absolute best... again... your mind was made up about greco a long time ago and there is nothing i can say on a stupid message board that is going to change the opinion you were given... i am totally ok with that... at some point you will either be ok with it or not... either way the amount of difference it will make in the real world will be exactly jack and shit and jack just left town... my advice would be to just continue to cater to the audience that puts food on your table and move on...
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 8 minutes ago, Simpleman424 said: ANNND…any point you were trying to make was discredited in the first four words…. it 100% does... 100% inarguable... but you will try... keep playing your role, sparky...
Jon_Kozak Posted October 8 Posted October 8 4 minutes ago, LJB said: folk wrestling has had more rule changes per year than free or greco for forever... that can not even be argued... i feel like you are reaching here at the absolute best... again... your mind was made up about greco a long time ago and there is nothing i can say on a stupid message board that is going to change the opinion you were given... i am totally ok with that... at some point you will either be ok with it or not... either way the amount of difference it will make in the real world will be exactly jack and shit and jack just left town... my advice would be to just continue to cater to the audience that puts food on your table and move on... Yes - when folkstyle makes rule changes, it's acknowledging something is wrong, and there needs to be a fix. UWW is doing the same thing with Greco with forced par terre, first-point-scored holding criteria, etc. You can't acknowledge that, and then you point the finger outward and say that everyone who doesn't think Greco is exciting is the problem. We don't understand it like you do. And then when I say, "help me understand". Nope, my mind is made up and I'll never change my mind. Do you really want more people to love Greco like you? Feels like having honest conversations and acknowledging where Greco can improve would be something someone who loves Greco would embrace. Again, I want Greco to be exciting - nothing would be better for me and the company I work for!
ionel Posted October 8 Posted October 8 2 hours ago, LJB said: by your rational, every wrestling match is boring because they score a fraction of points as compared ... 27 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said: If you love Greco and think it's exciting, help me understand what I'm missing in these 1-1 and 2-1 matches. To get back on topic ... pickleball always results in a minimum score of 11. 1 .
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 2 minutes ago, Jon_Kozak said: Yes - when folkstyle makes rule changes, it's acknowledging something is wrong, and there needs to be a fix. UWW is doing the same thing with Greco with forced par terre, first-point-scored holding criteria, etc. You can't acknowledge that, and then you point the finger outward and say that everyone who doesn't think Greco is exciting is the problem. We don't understand it like you do. And then when I say, "help me understand". Nope, my mind is made up and I'll never change my mind. Do you really want more people to love Greco like you? Feels like having honest conversations and acknowledging where Greco can improve would be something someone who loves Greco would embrace. Again, I want Greco to be exciting - nothing would be better for me and the company I work for! i can't acknowledge that? fuk hell, kozak... i have said in this thread alone that in the last 2 years international greco wrestling has improved exponentially since the criteria rule change... the simple fact of the matter is i can not help you... have you reached out to our national greco leadership for help? have you done fuk all besides saying on a pod cast listened to .000065625% of the planet's population that greco is "broken"? have you ever taken a fukn OEP program to learn the rules of international wrestling??? we can have a real conversation offline if you actually prefer... either way makes absolutely no difference to me...
Caveira Posted October 8 Posted October 8 1 minute ago, LJB said: i can't acknowledge that? fuk hell, kozak... i have said in this thread alone that in the last 2 years international greco wrestling has improved exponentially since the criteria rule change... the simple fact of the matter is i can not help you... have you reached out to our national greco leadership for help? have you done fuk all besides saying on a pod cast listened to .000065625% of the planet's population that greco is "broken"? have you ever taken a fukn OEP program to learn the rules of international wrestling??? we can have a real conversation offline if you actually prefer... either way makes absolutely no difference to me... I can’t put my finger on why people don’t like you. It’s a tough one.
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 1 minute ago, Caveira said: I can’t put my finger on why people don’t like you. It’s a tough one. there is literally no one on this planet who does not like me that i am concerned about... contemplate that for a minute... or do not...
RAFWiki Posted October 8 Posted October 8 Can we all agree LJB's kids should be forced to wrestle freestyle if they do RAF Starting to doubt LJB's "Chad Bronstein personally called me and asked my sons to wrestle Greco" story I bet the reality was more like "one of my kids saw Chad Bronstein at an airport and mentioned he was a wrestler" .
LJB Posted October 8 Posted October 8 Just now, RAFWiki said: Can we all agree LJB's kids should be forced to wrestle freestyle if they do RAF Starting to doubt LJB's "Chad Bronstein personally called me and asked my sons to wrestle Greco" story I bet the reality was more like "one of my kids saw Chad Bronstein at an airport and mentioned he was a wrestler" what are you trying to accomplish here, nerd? what is your end goal?
Jackson Lininger Northern York, Pennsylvania Class of 2027 Committed to Slippery Rock Projected Weight: 149
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