Will PSU Attend NDI or Schedule OSU Next Season

[BAC]

1 hour ago, LoserJucoMan said:

So Let's say Penn State goes to the National Duals and blows out the Majority of teams and then wins (or loses to be fair) to Okie State. How exactly is that doing a service to the sport?

It's doing a service to the sport because the presence of all top teams raises the gravitas of the event, and raising the tide is good for everyone.

The problem is the event lacks legitimacy as a dual meet championship without the top teams.  It's just an invitational with a bunch of duals to see is best among them.  As it happens, essentially *all* of the top teams have agreed to go, with the exception of PSU. They're the difference between making this just another private dual tournament or an event that can be seen, unofficially, as a legit early-season dual championship. 

The refrain in the first event was: "Even though PSU wasn't here, it was a great event." It's like everyone knew there was an asterisk by it since PSU bailed.  It seems like every PSU fan wanted them there, and I'll bet most PSU wrestlers wanted to be there. No one wants a "best of the rest" event.

If PSU has guys still at U23s or whatever, fine, send their B team.  PSU has too few competitions anyway, and their B team gets too little exposure anyway.

Besides, even with their A team, do you really think it's a blowout?  My guess is Okie State would be favored at 133, 141, HWT, maybe 174, tossup at 157.  Who wouldn't want to see that?   

[WrestlingRasta]

I don’t have any favorite college team by any means so it’s easy for me to look at this objectively. Something Penn state has significantly more of than any other program, besides total points regularly at the NCAA’s, is guys on their roster competing deep into the freestyle season…WTT’s; Final X; and various world championships. The people who were brought in to run the program and NLWC were so to produce individual and team national championships, and USA team members and medals.  
 

Given that, it is perfectly logical that their pre-big ten season is a ramp up rather than a hammers row. And those who are consistently whining about it are much like me chewing on the cartilage at the end of a plate of chicken wings…..it’s the only meat left to pick at. 

[ionel]

1 hour ago, MPhillips said:

Never happened...

  

[LoserJucoMan]

24 minutes ago, BAC said:

It's doing a service to the sport because the presence of all top teams raises the gravitas of the event, and raising the tide is good for everyone.

The problem is the event lacks legitimacy as a dual meet championship without the top teams.  It's just an invitational with a bunch of duals to see is best among them.  As it happens, essentially *all* of the top teams have agreed to go, with the exception of PSU. They're the difference between making this just another private dual tournament or an event that can be seen, unofficially, as a legit early-season dual championship. 

The refrain in the first event was: "Even though PSU wasn't here, it was a great event." It's like everyone knew there was an asterisk by it since PSU bailed.  It seems like every PSU fan wanted them there, and I'll bet most PSU wrestlers wanted to be there. No one wants a "best of the rest" event.

If PSU has guys still at U23s or whatever, fine, send their B team.  PSU has too few competitions anyway, and their B team gets too little exposure anyway.

Besides, even with their A team, do you really think it's a blowout?  My guess is Okie State would be favored at 133, 141, HWT, maybe 174, tossup at 157.  Who wouldn't want to see that?   

I think you raise a fair point. However, I also think even with PSU there its still just an invitational with a bunch of duals to see who is best among them. Now the question is did most of the top teams agree to go to see who the best team was or for the payout? If it's for the money then that changes things. I think it's important if PSU doesn't need the money. Then they're essentially going just to wrestle 80% of the teams they're going to see again later with their big ten schedule. It really doesn't make sense.

The national duals really didn't show us anything we didn't already know. The top teams there were the top teams in march for the most part. There were some people like Antrell Taylor that wrestled horrible there that redeemed themselves and some people like Dee Lockett that really impressed and still didn't make the podium. My main point is it doesn't really prove anything. I'd argue more for PSU going back to the Southern Scuffle if anything.

If you only care about hype moments or PSU potentially losing then I get it but in my opinion most of these duals in the first half of the season don't really matter anyway.

Also, i think PSU almost blows everyone out EXCEPT Okie State. I probably didn't word it properly.

[LoserJucoMan]

21 minutes ago, ionel said:

  

Just going to ignore my reply Huh 

[GV4444]

5 hours ago, boconnell said:

It's hilarious that you are equating other teams skipping the event with a better shot at NCAAs.

 

I am not.  I am implying that Cael Sanderson believes that because he chose not to go.  If he thought it would help him win the NCAAs, then he would go.   Winning the event and/or collecting the money were less important.

Other coaches made the decision that going to the National Duals would not hurt their performance relative to other teams who participated.  The exposure, experience, and payday outweighed any risk of hurting their NCAA performance.  It's just a decision that every coach has to make.   They will make it again next year and some more may very well choose not to go because of the new dates.

 

[Nak21]

Cael hates this event. He’s not gonna go. He gets to decide what’s best for his program, he seems to be doing ok.

U23s are in Vegas in mid Oct. That’s likely to be a team loaded with PSU guys. I know they moved NDIs a little later but it won’t matter. Cael hates the event and having massive amounts of his team on World teams late into the year provides cover for not going.

So I guess we’re gonna do this again for a second year.  Ignore a great event and a bunch of great wrestling to whine and complain about who’s not there. Weird…

[ionel]

1 hour ago, LoserJucoMan said:

Just going to ignore my reply Huh 

Key was said "helped."  Been on road but also dont generally respond to loser burner accounts.  

[LoserJucoMan]

3 minutes ago, ionel said:

Key was said "helped."  Been on road but also dont generally respond to loser burner accounts.  

You can insult me all you want but I won't stoop down to that level. I acknowledged the help part but why did you skip the part of holding the other coaches of major accountable? It's not like Cael has some sole responsibility for helping wrestling grow. All the coaches do. So if you're going to criticize Cael sure, but don't ignore when Brands and the other guys do it. That's just weird.

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, LoserJucoMan said:

You can insult me all you want but I won't stoop down to that level. I acknowledged the help part but why did you skip the part of holding the other coaches of major accountable? It's not like Cael has some sole responsibility for helping wrestling grow. All the coaches do. So if you're going to criticize Cael sure, but don't ignore when Brands and the other guys do it. That's just weird.

It does appear this is a burner account though.  Pretty sus boss 

sounds like ksoze tbh or however that is spelled 

[ionel]

6 minutes ago, LoserJucoMan said:

You can insult me all you want but I won't stoop down to that level. I acknowledged the help part but why did you skip the part of holding the other coaches of major accountable? It's not like Cael has some sole responsibility for helping wrestling grow. All the coaches do. So if you're going to criticize Cael sure, but don't ignore when Brands and the other guys do it. That's just weird.

Im not the one who created your user name ... it is "Loser" no?  And no Brands did not help, he tried to take their wrestler but I was replying regarding Cael.   

[LoserJucoMan]

17 minutes ago, ionel said:

Im not the one who created your user name ... it is "Loser" no?  And no Brands did not help, he tried to take their wrestler but I was replying regarding Cael.   

Oh yeah loser's in the name I find ironic stuff like that funny. You can think I'm a burner account but I don't know why anyone would create a burner account for a wrestler forum lol. I'm just a dude who was lurking all season and said screw it why not make an account.

 

Now back onto you, you replied toGV4444's post where you focused on people doing what's best for the sport. you said, "What has Cael done to help save any programs on the chopping block or for D1 college wrestling in general?". To the best of my knowledge David Taylor is the only head coach who's been outspoken about saving CBU wrestling, so yeah Cael didn't say anything but neither did Tom Ryan, Tom Brands, Kevin Dresser etc. I just don't get why we're not holding the rest of these guys up to the same standard.

 

I like the callout of Cael. It's the lack of coaches banding together that led to Programs like Oregon losing their program in 2007 literally after Shane Webster won in 2006. If we really care about wrestling we've got to be consistent though

[boconnell]

1 hour ago, GV4444 said:

I am not.  I am implying that Cael Sanderson believes that because he chose not to go.  If he thought it would help him win the NCAAs, then he would go.   Winning the event and/or collecting the money were less important.

Other coaches made the decision that going to the National Duals would not hurt their performance relative to other teams who participated.  The exposure, experience, and payday outweighed any risk of hurting their NCAA performance.  It's just a decision that every coach has to make.   They will make it again next year and some more may very well choose not to go because of the new dates.

 

You very clearly said you are interested in how many other coaches decide not to go to help their chance at NCAAs.  If that wasn't you connecting other teams not going to a better shot at NCAAs, then you had a weird way of expressing it.

[GV4444]

11 hours ago, boconnell said:

You very clearly said you are interested in how many other coaches decide not to go to help their chance at NCAAs.  If that wasn't you connecting other teams not going to a better shot at NCAAs, then you had a weird way of expressing it.

Again, every coach has to make the judgment call.  While all us fans want everyone to participate, it may not be in their interest and yes indeed hurting their chances at NCAAs.  Last year 15 of the top 16 teams made the call to participate.  If they did this for the altruistic reason of "what's good for the sport", then we will see what happens this year when the dates are moved to one week after Cliff Keen and also closer to many school finals.  

One can't say for certain if NDI participation hurt NCAA performance, because PSU was the only top team that didn't go, but one could reasonably argue that the additional grind of the NDI matches could take its toll over the course of the season.  If more teams decline, then we will be able to better compare.  

[Yugdab]

Not sure I can see them going for a number of reasons. 

 

1. Its an Oklahoma State created tournament and Cael seems kind of petty 

2. Look at PSU non conference schedule this past season. It is very pathetic for a club that has a 2nd team roster that would be top 15 in the country maybe higher. No ISU, Oklahoma State, No NCST no Va Tech no Cornell. None of the major individual tournaments Yes they had Lehigh but that is a regional historical rival. You could put Stanford on there list of tough duels but in reality during the season this was not a top tier team. They had an amazing NCAAs and will be a force next year. 

3.  PSU doesn't seem to care about the promotion and development on a national exposure level of the sport. The NDI is huge for the promotion and development of the college sport. People love the duels and this is a great way to bring attention to the sport and exposure. It gives wrestling more important dates nationally.  The college wrestling scene is Fragile and this is a big deal that PSU could really help with bringing more attention to wrestling. It is kind of selfish and short sighted. 

 

The wrestling community is dying to see OK ST and Penn ST go at in a duel format head to head. It would and will become the biggest rivalry and TV ratings would be huge. Will Penn ST step up for the sport as a whole or just be selfish? 

Edited March 24 by Yugdab

[BaldAt23]

They will not step up for the sport, for one reason or another 

[Southend]

12 hours ago, LoserJucoMan said:

Oh yeah loser's in the name I find ironic stuff like that funny. You can think I'm a burner account but I don't know why anyone would create a burner account for a wrestler forum lol. I'm just a dude who was lurking all season and said screw it why not make an account.

 

Now back onto you, you replied toGV4444's post where you focused on people doing what's best for the sport. you said, "What has Cael done to help save any programs on the chopping block or for D1 college wrestling in general?". To the best of my knowledge David Taylor is the only head coach who's been outspoken about saving CBU wrestling, so yeah Cael didn't say anything but neither did Tom Ryan, Tom Brands, Kevin Dresser etc. I just don't get why we're not holding the rest of these guys up to the same standard.

 

I like the callout of Cael. It's the lack of coaches banding together that led to Programs like Oregon losing their program in 2007 literally after Shane Webster won in 2006. If we really care about wrestling we've got to be consistent though

Welcome, and your commentary. I don’t car what anybody says, with a sign in name like that , can’t help but notice. Nice job. 

[Yugdab]

14 hours ago, LoserJucoMan said:

I think you raise a fair point. However, I also think even with PSU there its still just an invitational with a bunch of duals to see who is best among them. Now the question is did most of the top teams agree to go to see who the best team was or for the payout? If it's for the money then that changes things. I think it's important if PSU doesn't need the money. Then they're essentially going just to wrestle 80% of the teams they're going to see again later with their big ten schedule. It really doesn't make sense.

The national duals really didn't show us anything we didn't already know. The top teams there were the top teams in march for the most part. There were some people like Antrell Taylor that wrestled horrible there that redeemed themselves and some people like Dee Lockett that really impressed and still didn't make the podium. My main point is it doesn't really prove anything. I'd argue more for PSU going back to the Southern Scuffle if anything.

If you only care about hype moments or PSU potentially losing then I get it but in my opinion most of these duals in the first half of the season don't really matter anyway.

Also, i think PSU almost blows everyone out EXCEPT Okie State. I probably didn't word it properly.

Than why wrestle anything that doesn't mean something? Your statement doesn't really add up. Half of all games, matches events in every college sport don't mean something. 

This is an important event that promotes the sport and absolutely brings teams together that otherwise wouldn't wrestle a duel. 

 

The NCAA tournament is a completely different thing than a duel format. Why do it? 

The stage it gives these athletes and teams to compete and shine at. (NCAA Basketball has preseason tournaments? and for example the Jimmy V classic. )

The Challenge/compete  this is after all why most of these guys are in a sport is to comp

The opportunity to wrestle some teams you wont get the chance to in the regular season.

The promotion and development of the sport abd the Duel event. The NCAA tournament is completely different animal than the NDI

There is money involved and it is not like every PSU wrestler has unlimited funds. Evan if a guy is getting 200K 20K more ins.t a bad thing. 

 

 

 

[Lordnelson]

Cael has stated since the National Duals conversation started that he doesn't support the event.  His actions have directly reflected it.  They won't attend, period.  Anything that detracts from the tournament and isn't held exclusively in Happy Valley will not be entertained.

[LoserJucoMan]

4 hours ago, Yugdab said:

Than why wrestle anything that doesn't mean something? Your statement doesn't really add up. Half of all games, matches events in every college sport don't mean something. 

This is an important event that promotes the sport and absolutely brings teams together that otherwise wouldn't wrestle a duel. 

 

The NCAA tournament is a completely different thing than a duel format. Why do it? 

The stage it gives these athletes and teams to compete and shine at. (NCAA Basketball has preseason tournaments? and for example the Jimmy V classic. )

The Challenge/compete  this is after all why most of these guys are in a sport is to comp

The opportunity to wrestle some teams you wont get the chance to in the regular season.

The promotion and development of the sport abd the Duel event. The NCAA tournament is completely different animal than the NDI

There is money involved and it is not like every PSU wrestler has unlimited funds. Evan if a guy is getting 200K 20K more ins.t a bad thing. 

 

 

 

My main thing is the incentive, PSU is the most dominant team, they've won the championships like what 8 times out of the last 10 years and broke the scoring record three times in a row. They don't need the money they have a ton and spend a ton. They don't need to go to the tournament to prove they're the best, that's evident. On top of that wasn't the duals right after U-21 worlds? So now you have to weigh priorities. I don't see how going to this tournament benefits them in any way. Sure it benefits the spectators, but it just wouldn't make sense for them to go. And the other issue is CKLV was way less competitive as a result. We'll see how the scheduling works next year but I think it's good for a major event to not revolve around PSU and create the same amount of hype that OSU built after they beat Iowa in the finals.

[boconnell]

7 minutes ago, LoserJucoMan said:

My main thing is the incentive, PSU is the most dominant team, they've won the championships like what 8 times out of the last 10 years and broke the scoring record three times in a row. They don't need the money they have a ton and spend a ton. They don't need to go to the tournament to prove they're the best, that's evident. On top of that wasn't the duals right after U-21 worlds? So now you have to weigh priorities. I don't see how going to this tournament benefits them in any way. Sure it benefits the spectators, but it just wouldn't make sense for them to go. And the other issue is CKLV was way less competitive as a result. We'll see how the scheduling works next year but I think it's good for a major event to not revolve around PSU and create the same amount of hype that OSU built after they beat Iowa in the finals.

You make plenty of good points for why PSU doesn't need to go.  And they don't.  But all of the same points could be applied to every match PSU wrestles before NCAAs.  There is no reason they have to go to NDI.  There is even less reason they have to go to any of the stuff they do go to.  

Them not going doesn't need to be justified.  They don't want to.  End of story.  Stop trying to explain why they don't go to an event and instead go to other events that make even less sense.

[BarSeries]