Does Helen pass burroughs and become the GOAT?

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

18 hours ago, bnwtwg said:

 John  Smith  Lost  At  Multiple  World  Tournaments 

Those six golds have asterisks. He changed the game, but let's not act like he ran the table like what has to be done in a normal tournament in present day. He would be treated like Spencer Lee if he took one of those losses early.

He didn't have to beat Reinoso and he knew it.  That is part of the story.  He knew that as long as he wasn't pinned, he would advance.

Also the pools were random and could all be studs.  JB never had to deal with the pool system.  With a straight line bracket, he might not ever have to wrestle Reinoso.     

What was Smith's other pool loss?                     

PS and the more I think of it, Reinoso had a pool loss before he wrestled Smith.  In today's system, he wouldn't have made it Smith.                                                               

Edited yesterday at 04:47 PM by Interviewed_at_Weehawken

[bnwtwg]

23 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

He didn't have to beat Reinoso and he knew it.  That is part of the story.  He knew that as long as he wasn't pinned, he would advance.

Also the pools were random and could all be studs.  JB never had to deal with the pool system.  With a straight line bracket, he might not ever have to wrestle Reinoso.     

What was Smith's other pool loss?                     

PS and the more I think of it, Reinoso had a pool loss before he wrestled Smith.  In today's system, he wouldn't have made it Smith.                                                               

That makes the loss to Reinoso even worse.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

2 minutes ago, bnwtwg said:

That makes the loss to Reinoso even worse.

Reinoso would have been eliminated before reaching him.  How is that worse?  Again- Smith already knew he would advance as long as he wasn't pinned.

That was 1992.  What was the other loss?

[bnwtwg]

55 minutes ago, Interviewed_at_Weehawken said:

Reinoso would have been eliminated before reaching him.  How is that worse?  Again- Smith already knew he would advance as long as he wasn't pinned.

That was 1992.  What was the other loss?

Reinoso beat him in 1990 and 1992 in pool play. If I recall correctly, he also dropped a match in each of the OTT best of 3 qualifiers in 1988 and 1992. '88 was Randy Lewis and '92 was some dude from Michigan.

 

[juniorvarsity]

Blades and Welker bronze. Helen gold.

Women's team performance did not live up to expectations from recent years. No medals from the many first time world team members 

Missing some established point scorers from recent years without Adeline(Welker made up for it with Bronze), Amit(Glaude no points), Hildebrandt(Jiminez no points).

Kilty with medals from 23 and 23, but didn't earn a medal this year.

Jacarra no medal. She medaled in 23, so hard to say where she is in her career. She is 32.

[AZ_wrestling]

On 9/18/2025 at 12:01 PM, boconnell said:

You aren't being honest with yourself if you think the world competition in women's FS is close to the men (and again I'm not talking at all about level of wrestling).  John Smith had an easier path to medals and golds than Jordan Burroughs did.  This isn't saying that there weren't a bunch of incredible wrestlers in the 1980s.  Nobody is saying women's FS isn't good.  Nobody is saying that little girls aren't training just as hard as little boys.  But a sport with 1 generation isn't close to as competitive as a sport with many generations.  This isn't a hot take.  It's clear and obvious.  The worldwide participation numbers aren't close.  If people insist on having a GOAT conversation about JB and Maroulis, then this stuff can't be ignored.  Just like it can't be ignored when you talk about John Smith and JB.  

Yup. For every young girl in a wrestling room hoping to become a world champion, there are probably 25+ boys. But it’s not just a factor of time. That imbalance in competition will remain indefinitely — some sports simply appeal to males more than females. Others, like soccer and swimming, have a more balanced appeal between the sexes. A gold medal in women’s FS is simply not comparable to one in men’s. 

[Jason Bryant]

Blades and Welker bronze. Helen gold.
Women's team performance did not live up to expectations from recent years. No medals from the many first time world team members 
Missing some established point scorers from recent years without Adeline(Welker made up for it with Bronze), Amit(Glaude no points), Hildebrandt(Jiminez no points).
Kilty with medals from 23 and 23, but didn't earn a medal this year.
Jacarra no medal. She medaled in 23, so hard to say where she is in her career. She is 32.

Glaude finished 7th and did acquire eight points. it’s not 25, but she wrestled fairly decently.

[Interviewed_at_Weehawken]

On 9/19/2025 at 2:10 PM, bnwtwg said:

Reinoso beat him in 1990 and 1992 in pool play. If I recall correctly, he also dropped a match in each of the OTT best of 3 qualifiers in 1988 and 1992. '88 was Randy Lewis and '92 was some dude from Michigan.

 

John Fisher from Michigan.

Are you positive that his 1990 loss to Reinoso was at Worlds and not Pan Ams?

I mean, its not like he lost to Nick Marable or some of the other guys Burrough dropped matches to.

P.S.  Just checked.  The whole 1990 "loss in World Championships pool play to Reinoso?" Never happened.

Edited 4 minutes ago by Interviewed_at_Weehawken