Will Wrestling for Boys/Men Start to Follow Suit?

[Scouts Honor]

well i agree with that, but the other riding time was already used and scored. and they were still tied.

[Jim L]

11 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

the world is also not clamoring for a 'move' to free/greco

remember just a dozen years ago we were looking to save wrestling from being cut from the olympics... so popularity on the world stage isn't there either,

it's not just a USA thing 

The politics of the IOC wanting to drop wrestling has every little to do with its worldwide popularity. It is not popular in Western Europe which dominates the IOC. 

And that decision was hugely unpopular. For years after people who weren't sports fan and knew nothing about wrestling other than that I used to wrestle would mention what a terrible decision that was.

[Scouts Honor]

i dont disagree, but money usually drives these things...

 

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 hour ago, Scouts Honor said:

the world is also not clamoring for a 'move' to free/greco

remember just a dozen years ago we were looking to save wrestling from being cut from the olympics... so popularity on the world stage isn't there either,

it's not just a USA thing 

Most of the world already wrestles Freestyle and sees it as their primary form of the sport. The United States, however, has a lone style that no one else wrestles and they trumpet it with some desire for authority.

Part of that was rules, but I also saw part of that as a money grab. The IOC knows where it's proverbial bread is buttered, and that is the U.S. market. Saying it was dropping wrestling made some changes at FILA/UWW, but also had people spending money to keep the sport, which signals to the IOC that it remained economically viable, specifically in the United States.

I do agree with your last point, and that makes me sad.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Selling wrestling as the feeder system for the UFC doesn’t detract from it also being the feeder system for freestyle wrestling.  I’m not saying wrestling has “an obligation” to MMA, but a lot of people are interested in MMA and I don’t have the data off the top of my head but IMO Jiu-Jitsu (which also doesn’t involve being punched) seems to be capitalizing more on it’s popularity than wrestling.

But like I said, college wrestling already is the minor leagues of freestyle wrestling.  If your argument is you think we’d see more than maybe a handful more people “making wrestling their full-time job” if college was freestyle, I disagree.  College folkstyle seems to do a pretty good job in preparing guys for freestyle success.

I don't know, man. I think selling wrestling as a feeder to MMA devalues the sport and makes it seem one dimensional. Hell, St. Pierre, McGregor, Masvidal and many others with no wrestling backgrounds are/were able to regularly fend off attacks from guys who wrestled their whole lives and were accomplished in the sport. You don't need to be/have been a wrestler to have good leg attacks and defense in the UFC.

I, again, don't agree that collegiate wrestling prepares guys for Freestyle success, other than on the feet. While that is where most of the action is, that thin air level of athlete also needs par terre offense and defense. Collegiate wrestling doesn't help that.

Anyway,good discussion and thanks for keeping it civil. I hope you and yours enjoy your weekend.

[Scouts Honor]

6 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

Most of the world already wrestles Freestyle and sees it as their primary form of the sport. The United States, however, has a lone style that no one else wrestles and they trumpet it with some desire for authority.

 

this statement is true... however, the primary form of THIS sport... is it as popular as other sports..

again it comes back to money

people aren't clamoring for wrestling in general

so a switch from folk to free doesn't really change anything in this arena

whether we get better at free/greco or not

more people aren't going to watch

[CHROMEBIRD]

As far as a pro US league goes, I thought AGON was a nice hybrid and ahead of its time. I wouldn't be opposed if Askren, Flo, etc. gave it another try, esp if there's an appetite from sponsors and it gives RTCs and training clubs new competition opportunities. 

[NormMacDonald]

11 hours ago, 1032004 said:

That’d be more exciting IMO than winning 1-1 on criteria from 2 shot clock points because the ref felt it was the other guy’s turn to get hit for passivity 

agreed

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

22 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

this statement is true... however, the primary form of THIS sport... is it as popular as other sports..

again it comes back to money

people aren't clamoring for wrestling in general

so a switch from folk to free doesn't really change anything in this arena

whether we get better at free/greco or not

more people aren't going to watch

I agree that most folks aren't interested in wrestling in general.

As to the debate between American collegiate versus Freestyle, I don't think it's that. I think it's tribal. Fans follow schools more than the sports themselves. People would follow sand wrestling just the same if Penn State wrestled Arizona State at some indoor event. That's not to say you wouldn't lose some fans, but by and large each team's fanbase will remain intact regardless of style... I believe.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

17 hours ago, CHROMEBIRD said:

As far as a pro US league goes, I thought AGON was a nice hybrid and ahead of its time. I wouldn't be opposed if Askren, Flo, etc. gave it another try, esp if there's an appetite from sponsors and it gives RTCs and training clubs new competition opportunities. 

This part I don't understand. AGON, as I understood it, was a protmotion of a hybrid style that was unique to said promotion. Why would an entire RTC, let alone two of them, stop full-time training for World/Olympic gold to train something that is unique to one event? It might work for individuals, but not entirely teams.

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I agree that most folks aren't interested in wrestling in general.

As to the debate between American collegiate versus Freestyle, I don't think it's that. I think it's tribal. Fans follow schools more than the sports themselves. People would follow sand wrestling just the same if Penn State wrestled Arizona State at some indoor event. That's not to say you wouldn't lose some fans, but by and large each team's fanbase will remain intact regardless of style... I believe.

i dont disagree with this... but you will lose some in the mix.

you aren't going to GAIN. you will lose some of the folk purists

it would take YEARS for each college to catch up on how to coach freestyle at a high level, and learn to game the new rules.

the product will suffer, the haves will have more... and we may lose some programs

 

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

 Why would an entire RTC, let alone two of them, stop full-time training for World/Olympic gold to train something that is unique to one event? It might work for individuals, but not entirely teams.

why would an entire scholastic league retool to coach freestyle, when the majority of them aren't going to wrestle in worlds/olympics

[Caveira]

On 3/29/2025 at 9:55 AM, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

Most of the world already wrestles Freestyle and sees it as their primary form of the sport. The United States, however, has a lone style that no one else wrestles and they trumpet it with some desire for authority.

Part of that was rules, but I also saw part of that as a money grab. The IOC knows where it's proverbial bread is buttered, and that is the U.S. market. Saying it was dropping wrestling made some changes at FILA/UWW, but also had people spending money to keep the sport, which signals to the IOC that it remained economically viable, specifically in the United States.

I do agree with your last point, and that makes me sad.

The USA supports both styles.  There is a folkstyle season the insane vast majority of kids/high school / college athlete participate in.  
 

There is a summer season that is solely freestyle if they choose.  There are national tourneys for freestyle.  There are state tournaments for freestyle.   There are freestyle only clubs.  there are regional qualifiers.  There are world level events.  
 

The fact that the vast Majority of athletes and fans prefer folkstyle should tell you what you need to know.   There are even otc / rtc(s) that pay you to train.    Henry cejudo anyone?

[Caveira]

On 3/29/2025 at 10:04 AM, Scouts Honor said:

this statement is true... however, the primary form of THIS sport... is it as popular as other sports..

again it comes back to money

people aren't clamoring for wrestling in general

so a switch from folk to free doesn't really change anything in this arena

whether we get better at free/greco or not

more people aren't going to watch

All of this is true.  So very true.  We primarily ex wrestlers are the only fans of wrestling.   Do we watch or support tae Kwon do?   Probably not (unless you happen to have done it…. And there is nothing wrong with that.  Do we support kick boxing or competitive hobby horsing?
 

we talk about growing the sport  and making it main stream as if that’s possible.  It’s very likely not.  

[CHROMEBIRD]

4 hours ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

This part I don't understand. AGON, as I understood it, was a protmotion of a hybrid style that was unique to said promotion. Why would an entire RTC, let alone two of them, stop full-time training for World/Olympic gold to train something that is unique to one event? It might work for individuals, but not entirely teams.

Because it's not a bad way to get folkstyle fans out of their comfort zone and into freestyle. Incrementalism versus an abrupt cutover. IIRC, AGON came around during the ball grab era. Some of the rules were experimental at the time (e.g., step-outs) but would now closely resemble the freestyle ruleset. If memory serves it was more or less today's freestyle rules but with sudden victory, no criteria, and it was 3 periods with top/bottom/neutral, and I believe escapes were initially rewarded with a point... but that was changed. Imo, the style didn't force freestylers or folkstylers to adjust their fundamentals and technique very much.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

2 hours ago, Caveira said:

The fact that the vast Majority of athletes and fans prefer folkstyle should tell you what you need to know.

I don't buy this argument. Wrestling was part of elementary and secondary physical education curricula for decades. How that came to be, I do not know, but all that was offered/discussed was one style (the American collegiate style), which is what most people learned about. Athlete and fan preference wasn't a preference at all, but something which was force fed to them via the American educational system.

[Caveira]

27 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I don't buy this argument. Wrestling was part of elementary and secondary physical education curricula for decades. How that came to be, I do not know, but all that was offered/discussed was one style (the American collegiate style), which is what most people learned about. Athlete and fan preference wasn't a preference at all, but something which was force fed to them via the American educational system.

Ok.   I’ll bite.   
 

what % of kids do folkstyle only?

 

what % of kids do both folk and free?

 

same question for high school and college.  
 

also.  Bjj.  Kick boxing.  Karate.  Other forms of martial arts are not taught in school ever.  How do kids join that.  By osmosis ?

[Scouts Honor]

57 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I don't buy this argument. Wrestling was part of elementary and secondary physical education curricula for decades. How that came to be, I do not know, but all that was offered/discussed was one style (the American collegiate style), which is what most people learned about. Athlete and fan preference wasn't a preference at all, but something which was force fed to them via the American educational system.

you argued against yourself.

folk was in the curricula for years. and yet wrestling's popularity is in question.

[Scouts Honor]

why won't those basketball fans love me? 

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

3 hours ago, Caveira said:

Ok.   I’ll bite.   
 

what % of kids do folkstyle only?

 

what % of kids do both folk and free?

 

same question for high school and college.  
 

also.  Bjj.  Kick boxing.  Karate.  Other forms of martial arts are not taught in school ever.  How do kids join that.  By osmosis ?

I'll give a simple sample size: According to the Illinois High School Association's 2021-22 Participation Survey (the last one I can readily find), 13,077 boys and 1,134 girls, ages freshman through senior, participated in school-based wrestling programs. https://www.ihsa.org/documents/forms/IHSA Participation Survey.pdf

According to this article (best data I can find: https://illinoismatmen.com/illinois-girls-freestyle-state-championship-results-and-the-numbers/, just two years after the IHSA data, only 217 high school aged girls (16U and Juniors) wrestled at the Illinois Girls Freestyle State Championship or roughly 19% of girls who wrestled school-based collegiate style.

According to this link from 2023 (best data I can find): https://illinoismatmen.com/team-illinois-freestyle-squad-is-almost-complete/, 1,263 boys (Juniors and 16U) competed at Illinois Freestyle State. By the numbers from the IHSA I posted about, that's not quite 10% of the boys who wrestled in the IHSA season.

If you want numbers from other states and other age groups, that'll be up to you to mine.

Since you brought it up, how many schools (elementary or secondary ed) across the country teach BJJ, kick boxing and karate as part of their curricula or extra curricula activities?

[Caveira]

9 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I'll give a simple sample size: According to the Illinois High School Association's 2021-22 Participation Survey (the last one I can readily find), 13,077 boys and 1,134 girls, ages freshman through senior, participated in school-based wrestling programs. https://www.ihsa.org/documents/forms/IHSA Participation Survey.pdf

According to this article (best data I can find: https://illinoismatmen.com/illinois-girls-freestyle-state-championship-results-and-the-numbers/, just two years after the IHSA data, only 217 high school aged girls (16U and Juniors) wrestled at the Illinois Girls Freestyle State Championship or roughly 19% of girls who wrestled school-based collegiate style.

According to this link from 2023 (best data I can find): https://illinoismatmen.com/team-illinois-freestyle-squad-is-almost-complete/, 1,263 boys (Juniors and 16U) competed at Illinois Freestyle State. By the numbers from the IHSA I posted about, that's not quite 10% of the boys who wrestled in the IHSA season.

If you want numbers from other states and other age groups, that'll be up to you to mine.

Since you brought it up, how many schools (elementary or secondary ed) across the country teach BJJ, kick boxing and karate as part of their curricula or extra curricula activities?

So I guess two answers. 
 

if ~10% of the ihsa males wrestled freestyle in the summer.   Please help me understand why turning folkstyle into freestyle in high school helps the sport.  Clearly even the participants don’t like it well enough to do it in the summer.    

.to your second question 0.   That’s part of my point. No one teaches other marital arts.  Maybe it’s a small small single digit %.  That’s my point.  Those that say wrestling will die without freestyle …. How tf are those sports still sports when approx 0 grammar schools and 0 high schools and nearly 0 colleges teach or have teams.  
 

Edit:   I wrestled freestyle in the summer.  I actually liked it.   I just think the general fan and most of the wrestling community does not.  

Edited Monday at 01:53 AM by Caveira

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

3 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

you argued against yourself.

folk was in the curricula for years. and yet wrestling's popularity is in question.

My argument was never about popularity of the sport. My argument has been about creating more long-term, professional opportunities for men after college, the style that ends in college.

Also, American collegiate was largely perpetuated by guys who didn't wrestle beyond high school and rarely wrestled outside of the season. Many of those people were the same guys who argued against what they didn't know: the Olympic styles and the advent of wrestling "schools".

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12743697-2024-set-new-records-for-being-the-biggest-fargo-ever - it appears that more and more high school aged kids are finding interest in the Olympic styles.

[scourge165]

On 3/29/2025 at 7:16 AM, 1032004 said:

When was the last time someone won a match by getting 1:00 of riding time as the clock hit 0:00?  But honestly, as I think about it more I feel like that would actually be exciting. 

I do think we need to do something about 1 second of riding time deciding 2OT matches though.

I would just have them go again. Start the OT...over. Back to the feet, then back to the mat. I don't like any match decided by criteria. 

I think Ono is going to help grow Collegiate style and...I don't think going to Freestyle is even a consideration right now...so arguing about which is more exciting is a moot point. We have both...that's good enough for me. 

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

10 minutes ago, Caveira said:

So I guess two answers. 
 

if ~10% of the ihsa males wrestled freestyle in the summer.   Please help me understand why turning folkstyle into freestyle in high school helps the sport.  Clearly even the participants don’t like it well enough to do it in the summer.    

.to your second question 0.   That’s part of my point. No one teaches other marital arts.  Maybe it’s a small small single digit %.  That’s my point.  Those that say wrestling will die without freestyle …. How tf are those sports still sports when approx 0 grammar schools and 0 high schools and nearly 0 colleges teach or have teams.  
 

Edit:   I wrestled freestyle in the summer.  I actually liked it.   I just think the general fan and most of the wrestling community does not.  

Without asking kids why they don't wrestle the Olympic styles my best educated guess (and as a father of teenagers who participate in various athletics) would be this: they have many interests outside of wrestling. The multi-sport athlete is not dead. That may be news to many people here, but I can't help anyone either that.

I've stated my position on the change at least twice in this thread.

Who is saying wrestling will die out? I'm not clear on that claim, as I haven't voiced that idea.

I've addressed the fan perspective, too. It's easy to find here.

[scourge165]

6 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

My argument was never about popularity of the sport. My argument has been about creating more long-term, professional opportunities for men after college, the style that ends in college.

Also, American collegiate was largely perpetuated by guys who didn't wrestle beyond high school and rarely wrestled outside of the season. Many of those people were the same guys who argued against what they didn't know: the Olympic styles and the advent of wrestling "schools".

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12743697-2024-set-new-records-for-being-the-biggest-fargo-ever - it appears that more and more high school aged kids are finding interest in the Olympic styles.

More kids are specializing in sports. It follows more kids would Wrestle out in Fargo. 

I don't think that's an argument against changing the entire foundation American Wrestling is built on. It's not that big of an adjustment to go from Folkstyle to Freestyle...there's a bigger adjustment the other way, but we'll see how Ono does with that.