Will Wrestling for Boys/Men Start to Follow Suit?

[Scouts Honor]

7 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

My argument was never about popularity of the sport. My argument has been about creating more long-term, professional opportunities for men after college, the style that ends in college.

Also, American collegiate was largely perpetuated by guys who didn't wrestle beyond high school and rarely wrestled outside of the season. Many of those people were the same guys who argued against what they didn't know: the Olympic styles and the advent of wrestling "schools".

https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/12743697-2024-set-new-records-for-being-the-biggest-fargo-ever - it appears that more and more high school aged kids are finding interest in the Olympic styles.

i dont think it ever ends.. unless you let it... and MOST wrestlers let it

 

[Caveira]

Just now, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

Without asking kids why they don't wrestle the Olympic styles my best educated guess (and as a father of teenagers who participate in various athletics) would be this: they have many interests outside of wrestling. The multi-sport athlete is not dead. That may be news to many people here, but I can't help anyone either that.

I've stated my position on the change at least twice in this thread.

Who is saying wrestling will die out? I'm not clear on that claim, as I haven't voiced that idea.

I've addressed the fan perspective, too. It's easy to find here.

Tom todurky or something says wrestling is circling the drain or the bowl or whatever.  
 

with that said.  If summer freestyle is such a superior sport why not do other stuff during folkstyle season and do freestyle in the summer.  
 

my guess is.  Maybe they like folkstyle better.  And “other stuff” is more fun than freestyle.  I have kids to so I get it.  

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 minute ago, scourge165 said:

More kids are specializing in sports. It follows more kids would Wrestle out in Fargo. 

I don't think that's an argument against changing the entire foundation American Wrestling is built on. It's not that big of an adjustment to go from Folkstyle to Freestyle...there's a bigger adjustment the other way, but we'll see how Ono does with that. 

Since you made the claim, and we have people here playing that game, what are the percentages of kids who specialize in sports come high school these days? I do not know the answer to it.

To your second paragraph... okay.

[1032004]

6 minutes ago, scourge165 said:

...I don't think going to Freestyle is even a consideration right now...so arguing about which is more exciting is a moot point. We have both...that's good enough for me. 

Yup, even guys that prefer freestyle like Vito (on recent Mike Mal podcast for example) have said nothing is changing now, basically we’d have to go back in time if we really wanted to change it.

[Scouts Honor]

specialization depends on where you are

big school, small school.

 

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

2 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Tom todurky or something says wrestling is circling the drain or the bowl or whatever.  
 

with that said.  If summer freestyle is such a superior sport why not do other stuff during folkstyle season and do freestyle in the summer.  
 

my guess is.  Maybe they like folkstyle better.  And “other stuff” is more fun than freestyle.  I have kids to so I get it.  

I don't know Tom todurky. All I know is that I never said that, and to read into it is a completely misunderstanding every thing I have said here.

[Caveira]

12 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

My argument was never about popularity of the sport. My argument has been about creating more long-term, professional opportunities for men after college, the style that ends in college.

2,400 (according to Google) men wrestle in college.  There are what.  18 spots on freestyle world teams?   356,000 wrestle in high school by the way.   That’s 0.6% of high school athletes of those figures are right.   0.005% are world level teams.   Shyte    Multiply that by 10 for the us open and the other competitors.    0.005% wrestle after college.      

 

let’s make our sport less popular.   More boring.   For what.  18 spots?   For 0.005% of wrestlers.   #winning 

[scourge165]

1 minute ago, Scouts Honor said:

specialization depends on where you are

big school, small school.

 

How is that? I don't think the size of the school has anything to do with kids picking one sport and dedicating themselves to that. 

 

[Caveira]

3 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I don't know Tom todurky. All I know is that I never said that, and to read into it is a completely misunderstanding every thing I have said here.

Said misunderstanding.  I apologize.  He has an America ish name.  Like Tom.  Or something like that.  It’s two syllables if that helps. I just don’t find him.  He’s a big freestyle supporter maybe that helps.  But he says circling the drain or on death watch or dying about wrestling a lot in his argument off why freestyle.  
 

I honestly typed Tom tofurky before looking at your post.  I chose to leave it knowing I was wrong because I thought it was sort of funny.   

Edited March 31 by Caveira

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

8 minutes ago, Caveira said:

2,400 (according to Google) men wrestle in college.  There are what.  18 spots on freestyle world teams?   356,000 wrestle in high school by the way.   That’s 0.6% of high school athletes of those figures are right.   0.005% are world level teams.   Shyte    Multiply that by 10 for the us open and the other competitors.    0.005% wrestle after college.      

 

let’s make our sport less popular.   More boring.   For what.  18 spots?   For 0.005% of wrestlers.   #winning 

That argument is subjective.

While the USA doesn't owe it to the world to help grow wrestling, it sure is pretty cool that guys like Matt Gentry, RBY, Steven Micic and many others have been able to become professional Olympic-level wrestlers and earn an income doing so, while making non-traditional powerhouse nations even stronger. It could be even better than what it is now...

[Caveira]

2 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

That argument is subjective.

While the USA doesn't owe it to the world to help grow wrestling, it sure is pretty cool that guys like Matt Gentry, RBY, Steven Micic and many others have been able to become professional Olympic-level wrestlers and earn an income doing so, while making non-traditional powerhouse nations even stronger. It could be even better than what it is now...

So we should “screw” 355,997 people because of rby micic and a great reference to Matt gentry?   (Awesome ncaa champ)  

freestyle is demonstrably less popular here.  I don’t understand in our “grow wrestling argument.”  How do we grow wrestling less.    I said less….       Change it to freestyle   

the general public cares 0 about our Olympic and world prowess in wrestling of any kind.   I should remind you of that.  

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

22 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Yup, even guys that prefer freestyle like Vito (on recent Mike Mal podcast for example) have said nothing is changing now, basically we’d have to go back in time if we really wanted to change it.

I disagree. It comes down to rule adoption and implementation, not trading wrestling for Sambo, for example.

[1032004]

3 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I disagree. It comes down to rule adoption and implementation, not trading wrestling for Sambo, for example.

What are you suggesting?  Get rid of folkstyle completely at all levels?  We would lose probably 50% or more of our youth coaches and referees.

[Caveira]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

What are you suggesting?  Get rid of folkstyle completely at all levels?  We would lose probably 50% or more of our youth coaches and referees.

90% if you the rough #s he posted above are true.   I know it’s nuanced and I’m being dramatic a little on purpose.  I just think it’s worse than 50%

Edited March 31 by Caveira

[WrestlingRecords.com]

Folkstyle is junk. It should have been killed long ago. If we only did freestyle, our national team would be more competitive. I'm tired of us losing to the Soviet countries. Now we can't even beat Japan. I don't think folkstyle will ever go away because it's an American thing, and too many coaches/camps have a financial incentive to keep top/bottom wrestling.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 minute ago, Caveira said:

So we should “screw” 355,997 people because of rby micic and a great reference to Matt gentry?   (Awesome ncaa champ)  

freestyle is demonstrably less popular here.  I don’t understand in our “grow wrestling argument.”  How do we grow wrestling less.    I said less….       Change it to freestyle   

the general public cares 0 about our Olympic and world prowess in wrestling of any kind.   I should remind you of that.  

How would would moving to Freestyle "screw" anyone and how did you come to that conclusion?

You have made it abundantly clear that you, personally, do not like Freestyle. That's not an issue. Yet, to argue that your opinion is THE opinion of the general public is specious at best.

Is Freestyle less popular here because people just don't like it or because of a lack of exposure to even most people involved in the sport? I'll argue the latter.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

7 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

What are you suggesting?  Get rid of folkstyle completely at all levels?  We would lose probably 50% or more of our youth coaches and referees.

No, I am not, and have not suggested that. Move American collegiate as we currently know it to summertime fun and MMA gyms.

Again, it would take gradual rule implementation, not one fell swoop. It can absolutely be done.

[Caveira]

Just now, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

How would would moving to Freestyle "screw" anyone and how did you come to that conclusion?

You have made it abundantly clear that you, personally, do not like Freestyle. That's not an issue. Yet, to argue that your opinion is THE opinion of the general public is specious at best.

Is Freestyle less popular here because people just don't like it or because of a lack of exposure to even most people involved in the sport? I'll argue the latter.

Because most wrestlers and fans prefer folkstyle. ???

For the record I liked freestyle as a competitor.  I actually did slightly better state medal wise in freestyle. I just think fans and wrestlers like it less.  
 

if freestyle was demonstrably  better people would do it more.  What facts were posted above.  90% of ihsa hs wrestlers don’t do freestyle.  That’s a fairly high number.  
 

I love freestyle.  Keep it.  Just keep it in the summer.  Stop trying to change the rules in the fall to be more “freestyle”.   
 

Imagine if an army of Greco people tried to turn folkstyle into Greco.  I bet you would hate it.  No one argues that Greco is the coolest form of wrestling.  Your freestyle is the Greco to my folkstyle argument.  Leave folkstyle alone.  It’s superior.   

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

9 minutes ago, Caveira said:

90% if you the rough #s he posted above are true.   I know it’s nuanced and I’m being dramatic a little on purpose.  I just think it’s worse than 50%

And because of your (continued) self-identified dramatic(s) and abject conjecture, I bid you "adieu" in this conversation.

[1032004]

2 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

No, I am not, and have not suggested that. Move American collegiate as we currently know it to summertime fun and MMA gyms.

Again, it would take gradual rule implementation, not one fell swoop. It can absolutely be done.

So just change college to freestyle?

[Caveira]

6 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

And because of your (continued) self-identified dramatic(s) and abject conjecture, I bid you "adieu" in this conversation.

Do more than 1 out of 10 ihsa hs wrestlers participate in freestyle in the summer?      Why is it so low ?

Edited March 31 by Caveira

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

So just change college to freestyle?

Kids, high school and college, yes.

[WrestlingRecords.com]

7 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Because most wrestlers and fans prefer folkstyle. ???

For the record I liked freestyle as a competitor.  I actually did slightly better state medal wise in freestyle. I just think fans and wrestlers like it less.  
 

if freestyle was demonstrably  better people would do it more.  What facts were posted above.  90% of ihsa hs wrestlers don’t do freestyle.  That’s a fairly high number.  
 

I love freestyle.  Keep it.  Just keep it in the summer.  Stop trying to change the rules in the fall to be more “freestyle”.   
 

Imagine if an army of Greco people tried to turn folkstyle into Greco.  I bet you would hate it.  No one argues that Greco is the coolest form of wrestling.  Your freestyle is the Greco to my folkstyle argument.  Leave folkstyle alone.  It’s superior.   

I think we do folkstyle because of tradition. I don't think it has anything to do with more wrestlers and fans preferring folkstyle. If college and high school wrestling magically became freestyle tomorrow, no one is going to quit wrestling. Or not sign up to wrestle. Folkstyle and freestyle are pretty similar. 

[1032004]

11 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

Kids, high school and college, yes.

OK that’s what I thought you meant.

9 minutes ago, WrestlingRecords.com said:

I think we do folkstyle because of tradition. I don't think it has anything to do with more wrestlers and fans preferring folkstyle. If college and high school wrestling magically became freestyle tomorrow, no one is going to quit wrestling. Or not sign up to wrestle. Folkstyle and freestyle are pretty similar. 

The kids probably wouldn’t quit, but many coaches and refs would.  And a lot of the ones that would remain wouldn’t be that knowledgeable about it.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

5 minutes ago, Caveira said:

Do more than 1 out of 10 ihsa hs wrestlers participate in freestyle in the summer?      Why is it so low ?

I'll bite one last time.

I do not know why. If you want to call around to coaches across the IHSA and have them poll their kids, knock yourself out.

That said, here are my last two points to you in this thread: 1. Most of Freestyle season isn't wrestled in the summertime. It takes place in spring. The Freestyle and Greco state tournaments and "Second Chance" tournaments take place in May each year, while school is going on. 2. Outside of the Illinois high school season (November to February), I have noticed a dramatic decline in American Collegiate/folk offerings in Illinois each spring and summer in the last decade to 15 years. More and more tournaments are geared towards Free and GR, especially developmentals.