Will Wrestling for Boys/Men Start to Follow Suit?

[Scouts Honor]

16 minutes ago, The Kid said:

Folkstyle isn't more exciting.  It's boring. That's why wrestling is circling the drain in this Country.  They can even get consistent rules or officials. 

beg to differ

lets talk about the irrelevance of freestyle among viewers 

[CHROMEBIRD]

1 hour ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

The same can be said for any sport with a "professional" option, so I, for one, am not persuaded by that argument. Here is a graph from the NCAA, circa 2016.

The odds haven't increased.

No one complains about rule sets for kids and youth sports progressing with age, while the opportunities for being among that tiny fraction who make a living by competing in a sport are shockingly small.

I also don't understand the argument of preparing people for careers in MMA. That's not the responsibility of the sport; wrestling doesn't bill itself as the minor leagues of mixed martial arts, so I am not certain why fans feel the need to do so.

Building a foundation for opportunities that exists beyond college makes financial sense. The pro leagues are happening elsewhere, and they absolutely can happen here, but not with American folk.

? The first thing I said was that the # of wrestlers who go on to International or Olympic careers is tiny, as is the case with the % of kids who go pro in other sports in your infographic. But if we're talking about growth and participation, my hypothesis is that the popularity of BJJ and MMA makes it easier for kids in those sports to try out folkstyle since the skillset is arguably more relevant and applicable than freestyle. And in theory, the scale of money in mixed martial arts could go towards promoting folkstyle wrestling as a pathway.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

On 3/21/2025 at 10:28 PM, CHROMEBIRD said:

? The first thing I said was that the # of wrestlers who go on to International or Olympic careers is tiny, as is the case with the % of kids who go pro in other sports in your infographic. But if we're talking about growth and participation, my hypothesis is that the popularity of BJJ and MMA makes it easier for kids in those sports to try out folkstyle since the skillset is arguably more relevant and applicable than freestyle. And in theory, the scale of money in mixed martial arts could go towards promoting folkstyle wrestling as a pathway.

I understood what you said then and now. I simply do not agree with you, and I don't think wrestling owes MMA anything, nor should it cater to the needs of non-wrestling entities.

American Folk/Collegiate is not the way to save or grow wrestling.

[Husker U]

This may be a little off topic and doesn't get into the argument on should boys switch to Free Style in High School.  It is more about why I do not think states should or will switch to Free Style 

I do not like the idea of what NY is doing with their HS girls.  I think it will have a very hard time promoting the sport and keeping it relative to what the boys will get and be able to do.  Are they going to have separate tournaments?  Trying to run a freestyle girls tournament and a Folk Style boys tournament would be a nightmare.  Two different sets of officials among other things.  

Girls wrestling is exploding all over the Country, but I think this will take a step backwards for their state.  Not bashing girls wrestling at all, but if you were to hold a girls tournament at the same time as a boys tournament in two different locations (which is about the only way that I could see them accomplishing two styles), who is going to have the bigger crowd and fan base.  By keeping the girls the same as the guys, more people are at the tournaments and more people pay attention to the girls and see what they are able to accomplish.  Like I said, I'm not bashing girls wrestling at all.  In fact 10 years ago, I did not want to be near it, but now that the sport has grown and I see the accomplishments and hard work that the girls put in, I appreciate the sport and support it.  

 

[Jim L]

2 hours ago, Husker U said:

This may be a little off topic and doesn't get into the argument on should boys switch to Free Style in High School.  It is more about why I do not think states should or will switch to Free Style 

I do not like the idea of what NY is doing with their HS girls.  I think it will have a very hard time promoting the sport and keeping it relative to what the boys will get and be able to do.  Are they going to have separate tournaments?  Trying to run a freestyle girls tournament and a Folk Style boys tournament would be a nightmare.  Two different sets of officials among other things.  

Girls wrestling is exploding all over the Country, but I think this will take a step backwards for their state.  Not bashing girls wrestling at all, but if you were to hold a girls tournament at the same time as a boys tournament in two different locations (which is about the only way that I could see them accomplishing two styles), who is going to have the bigger crowd and fan base.  By keeping the girls the same as the guys, more people are at the tournaments and more people pay attention to the girls and see what they are able to accomplish.  Like I said, I'm not bashing girls wrestling at all.  In fact 10 years ago, I did not want to be near it, but now that the sport has grown and I see the accomplishments and hard work that the girls put in, I appreciate the sport and support it.  

 

Refs should be able to officiate a FS and folkstyle match. REffing any wrestling match is hard, I wouldn't be able to do it, but don't think the FS rules are that hard to learn for a good tref. There wont be perfection, but I don't think that is a good argument against. The amount of HS coaches who will be able to be adequately coach in FS is questionable a well. But it is not that different for most high school level athletes. 

I think with the growth of girls wrestling on the youth and HS level, colleges starting offer scholarships and being focused on FS from the start, US women's wrestling is poised to become the best in the world (or at least a strong second to Japan)

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

On 3/21/2025 at 10:27 PM, Scouts Honor said:

beg to differ

lets talk about the irrelevance of freestyle among viewers 

Why do you think this is the case?

[Scouts Honor]

no idea... no one wants it. the big 3 have NEVER had it as far as i know.

probably b/c there isn't a market for it.  Wide World of Sports, when i was a kid, showed a match maybe once or twice a year.

flo gets it., now only flo subscribers can watch

 

 

[blueandgold]

2 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

no idea... no one wants it. the big 3 have NEVER had it as far as i know.

probably b/c there isn't a market for it.  Wide World of Sports, when i was a kid, showed a match maybe once or twice a year.

flo gets it., now only flo subscribers can watch

 

 

Considering how many people on the site alone complained about the lack of action in a lot of the NCAA finals, nobody seems to want that either. Aside from the heavyweight final and the drama surrounding it, everyone complained about the three-point takedown, riding time in OT, stalling, etc.

[NYupstate]

20 hours ago, Husker U said:

This may be a little off topic and doesn't get into the argument on should boys switch to Free Style in High School.  It is more about why I do not think states should or will switch to Free Style 

I do not like the idea of what NY is doing with their HS girls.  I think it will have a very hard time promoting the sport and keeping it relative to what the boys will get and be able to do.  Are they going to have separate tournaments?  Trying to run a freestyle girls tournament and a Folk Style boys tournament would be a nightmare.  Two different sets of officials among other things.  

Girls wrestling is exploding all over the Country, but I think this will take a step backwards for their state.  Not bashing girls wrestling at all, but if you were to hold a girls tournament at the same time as a boys tournament in two different locations (which is about the only way that I could see them accomplishing two styles), who is going to have the bigger crowd and fan base.  By keeping the girls the same as the guys, more people are at the tournaments and more people pay attention to the girls and see what they are able to accomplish.  Like I said, I'm not bashing girls wrestling at all.  In fact 10 years ago, I did not want to be near it, but now that the sport has grown and I see the accomplishments and hard work that the girls put in, I appreciate the sport and support it.  

 

NY ran the girls' and boys' tournaments on different days. Girls had one day, boys went the next two days to get through all their brackets.

[GopherINOHLand]

Thoughts as a fan for college folkstyle wrestling: change riding time to be 2mins=1pt, fix stalling calls in a way to promote attacking wrestling much sooner (how is probably a whole different topic), wrestling on the edge will need shot/sprawls instead of circling by both to force a flee stall call. That crap starts, then stalemate & center. In fact forcing them out should be a stall on the one forcing out with no shot/attack depending on the situation. 

As for freestyle with limited involvement as fan or etc: RAISE THE TECH FALL BY DOUBLE THE AMOUNT OR MORE! THAT OR MAKE LACES WITH ROLLS WORTH LESS. Need something to make it more exciting for the viewer. 

Why do we not see as much success in Greco like a casual US observer would think? How do we change it?

Last can we get a "Combined Style" that wrestles 3 periods of all 3 styles? Still wrestle all 3 regardless of getting a fall or tech fall in the 2 other periods.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

22 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

no idea... no one wants it. the big 3 have NEVER had it as far as i know.

probably b/c there isn't a market for it.  Wide World of Sports, when i was a kid, showed a match maybe once or twice a year.

flo gets it., now only flo subscribers can watch

I remember watching the NCAA finals each year when they were on CBS. They probably had that contract back then, as they and other broadcast companies had with different sports.

Part of the issue with the sport not bei n covered by "the big 3" is the lack of a "professional" option within the sport in the United States. U.S. broadcasters aren't going to cover the German league without a tie to the U.S. Collegiate wrestling doesn't offer that option, but Free and GR absolutely can. This is about finances, and if the U.S. invested in that, the broadcast companies would follow.

[Scouts Honor]

1 minute ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

I remember watching the NCAA finals each year when they were on CBS. They probably had that contract back then, as they and other broadcast companies had with different sports.

Part of the issue with the sport not bei n covered by "the big 3" is the lack of a "professional" option within the sport in the United States. U.S. broadcasters aren't going to cover the German league without a tie to the U.S. Collegiate wrestling doesn't offer that option, but Free and GR absolutely can. This is about finances, and if the U.S. invested in that, the broadcast companies would follow.

how long ago was that?

in the early nineties they played tape delayed and truncated version on espn. never saw it on cbs.

but again, not good marketing, the finals matches are always a chess match

2. german league?

no one covers the best volleyball leagues in the world... despite the US stars that play over there.

[1032004]

On 3/21/2025 at 9:32 PM, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

The same can be said for any sport with a "professional" option, so I, for one, am not persuaded by that argument. Here is a graph from the NCAA, circa 2016.

The odds haven't increased.

No one complains about rule sets for kids and youth sports progressing with age, while the opportunities for being among that tiny fraction who make a living by competing in a sport are shockingly small.

I also don't understand the argument of preparing people for careers in MMA. That's not the responsibility of the sport; wrestling doesn't bill itself as the minor leagues of mixed martial arts, so I am not certain why fans feel the need to do so.

Building a foundation for opportunities that exists beyond college makes financial sense. The pro leagues are happening elsewhere, and they absolutely can happen here, but not with American folk.

Wrestling probably should bill itself as the minor leagues of MMA, TBH.  MMA seems to be what is driving things like the growth in jiu jitsu participation for kids, even though if I had to bet wrestling is probably the most common experience among successful UFC fighters.

Professional leagues are “happening,” but how successful are they (honest question)?  Not nearly as successful as the UFC I’m sure 

Edited Saturday at 10:12 AM by 1032004

[1032004]

On 3/21/2025 at 10:23 AM, NormMacDonald said:

We need to get the rest of the world wrestling folkstyle instead. Can you imagine the excitement of riding clock hitting 1:00 at the same time the match clock its 0:00 to win a gold medal in the Olympics? 

That’d be more exciting IMO than winning 1-1 on criteria from 2 shot clock points because the ref felt it was the other guy’s turn to get hit for passivity 

Edited Saturday at 10:15 AM by 1032004

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

10 hours ago, Scouts Honor said:

how long ago was that?

in the early nineties they played tape delayed and truncated version on espn. never saw it on cbs.

but again, not good marketing, the finals matches are always a chess match

2. german league?

no one covers the best volleyball leagues in the world... despite the US stars that play over there.

Late-1980s/Early 1990s; here's a match from then:

https://youtu.be/Z7g6MmBe8qI?si=MV90ZgHWNjLY3ax2

Agreed with the tape delay, as I remember it being two weeks or so after the finals actually took place.

https://uww.org/brightcove_video/35733 - German League

I can't speak to anything about volleyball, but what I do know is that the world is NOT clamoring to move to the American collegiate style. Men and women (even those from the United States) can travel the world and earn prize money for competing in Free and GR competitions. That just is not the case for American collegiate wrestling. American Folk/Collegiate is a dead end.

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Wrestling probably should bill itself as the minor leagues of MMA, TBH.  MMA seems to be what is driving things like the growth in jiu jitsu participation for kids, even though if I had to bet wrestling is probably the most common experience among successful UFC fighters.

Professional leagues are “happening,” but how successful are they (honest question)?  Not nearly as successful as the UFC I’m sure 

If that's your opinion, then why not lobby to change the rule set to accommodate MMA?

I'd argue that most wrestlers don't want to go into MMA, so making wrestling the "minor leagues" of the sport might have the opposite effect of growing it. Most people don't want to be punched or kicked nor do they want to punch or kick others.

Another end of that is for every Daniel Cormier or Jon Jones out there, 10-plus (if not more) former wrestlers have to work other jobs to supplement their training and competing. MMA doesn't automatically equal stable, lucrative work.

Again, if guys and women want to pursue those things after college, more power to them. I still feel that wrestling has no obligation to help them grow.

Here is my thought on professional leagues: U.S. dollars. If our system had the ability to produce even more high level guys and gals who can make being a wrestler a full-time jojob think depth of Russian wrestling: more RTC athlete at even more RTCs), you'd see more leagues across the world happening. i, for one, can see a mix of Flowrestling: Night In America and what Real Pro Wrestling was trying to do. Bring over the Onos, Yazdanis, Sadulaevs or even clubs from around the globe. USA Wrestling has the connections to help facilitate that.

All that being said, none of that can happen without the direct connection to college wrestling, which is why I think we make college wrestling the minor leagues of professional Freestyle wrestling. Right now, fans love their college teams because there is nothing after college. My idea relies heavily on the fanbases of the Iowas, PSUs, Okie States, Cornells, tOSUs, etc. (I really wanted to include Arizona State in that, but...)

[Jim L]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

That’d be more exciting IMO than winning 1-1 on criteria from 2 shot clock points because the ref felt it was the other guy’s turn to get hit for passivity 

That almost never happens at high level FS matches. Riding time is often huge factor in NCAA matches

[Tom formerly Tofurky]

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

That’d be more exciting IMO than winning 1-1 on criteria from 2 shot clock points because the ref felt it was the other guy’s turn to get hit for passivity 

That's an absolutely ridiculous statement. Here were the Men's Freestyle medal match scores from the last Olympics:

55 - Gold: 4-2, Bronze: 13-5, Bronze: 5-1

65 - Gold: 10-3, Bronze: 10-9, Bronze: 13-12

74 - Gold: 5-0 F, Bronze: 10-4, Bronze: 6-2

86 - Gold: 7-1, Bronze: 5-0, Bronze: 5-4

97 - Gold: 2-0 F, Bronze: 10-0, Bronze: 4-1

120 - Gold: 10-9, Bronze: 7-0, Bronze: 9-3

As everyone can see, what you said is anachronistic and incorrect. Not one of those 18 matches was decided in the fashion in which you claimed.

[Jim L]

9 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

If that's your opinion, then why not lobby to change the rule set to accommodate MMA?

I'd argue that most wrestlers don't want to go into MMA, so making wrestling the "minor leagues" of the sport might have the opposite effect of growing it. Most people don't want to be punched or kicked nor do they want to punch or kick others.

Another end of that is for every Daniel Cormier or Jon Jones out there, 10-plus (if not more) former wrestlers have to work other jobs to supplement their training and competing. MMA doesn't automatically equal stable, lucrative work.

Again, if guys and women want to pursue those things after college, more power to them. I still feel that wrestling has no obligation to help them grow

Agreed. Making wrestling a feeder system to MMA is not a good idea. Most MMA fans wants the excitement/violence of punches and kicks and KOs. They do not appreciate a well executed double leg. If they appreciate grappling at all is is likely they like or practice BJJ and the things we like about mat wrestling (back points and pins) do not make sense to a BJJ fans

[1032004]

8 minutes ago, Jim L said:

That almost never happens at high level FS matches. Riding time is often huge factor in NCAA matches

When was the last time someone won a match by getting 1:00 of riding time as the clock hit 0:00?  But honestly, as I think about it more I feel like that would actually be exciting. 

I do think we need to do something about 1 second of riding time deciding 2OT matches though.

[1032004]

24 minutes ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

If that's your opinion, then why not lobby to change the rule set to accommodate MMA?

I'd argue that most wrestlers don't want to go into MMA, so making wrestling the "minor leagues" of the sport might have the opposite effect of growing it. Most people don't want to be punched or kicked nor do they want to punch or kick others.

Another end of that is for every Daniel Cormier or Jon Jones out there, 10-plus (if not more) former wrestlers have to work other jobs to supplement their training and competing. MMA doesn't automatically equal stable, lucrative work.

Again, if guys and women want to pursue those things after college, more power to them. I still feel that wrestling has no obligation to help them grow.

Here is my thought on professional leagues: U.S. dollars. If our system had the ability to produce even more high level guys and gals who can make being a wrestler a full-time jojob think depth of Russian wrestling: more RTC athlete at even more RTCs), you'd see more leagues across the world happening. i, for one, can see a mix of Flowrestling: Night In America and what Real Pro Wrestling was trying to do. Bring over the Onos, Yazdanis, Sadulaevs or even clubs from around the globe. USA Wrestling has the connections to help facilitate that.

All that being said, none of that can happen without the direct connection to college wrestling, which is why I think we make college wrestling the minor leagues of professional Freestyle wrestling. Right now, fans love their college teams because there is nothing after college. My idea relies heavily on the fanbases of the Iowas, PSUs, Okie States, Cornells, tOSUs, etc. (I really wanted to include Arizona State in that, but...)

Selling wrestling as the feeder system for the UFC doesn’t detract from it also being the feeder system for freestyle wrestling.  I’m not saying wrestling has “an obligation” to MMA, but a lot of people are interested in MMA and I don’t have the data off the top of my head but IMO Jiu-Jitsu (which also doesn’t involve being punched) seems to be capitalizing more on it’s popularity than wrestling.

But like I said, college wrestling already is the minor leagues of freestyle wrestling.  If your argument is you think we’d see more than maybe a handful more people “making wrestling their full-time job” if college was freestyle, I disagree.  College folkstyle seems to do a pretty good job in preparing guys for freestyle success.

[Scouts Honor]

1 hour ago, Tom formerly Tofurky said:

Late-1980s/Early 1990s; here's a match from then:

https://youtu.be/Z7g6MmBe8qI?si=MV90ZgHWNjLY3ax2

Agreed with the tape delay, as I remember it being two weeks or so after the finals actually took place.

https://uww.org/brightcove_video/35733 - German League

I can't speak to anything about volleyball, but what I do know is that the world is NOT clamoring to move to the American collegiate style. Men and women (even those from the United States) can travel the world and earn prize money for competing in Free and GR competitions. That just is not the case for American collegiate wrestling. American Folk/Collegiate is a dead end.

the world is also not clamoring for a 'move' to free/greco

remember just a dozen years ago we were looking to save wrestling from being cut from the olympics... so popularity on the world stage isn't there either,

it's not just a USA thing 

[Scouts Honor]

when you are looking for a winner, you are looking for differences

in a 2 OT match.. what is the difference?

that 1 second of riding time...

[1032004]

5 minutes ago, Scouts Honor said:

when you are looking for a winner, you are looking for differences

in a 2 OT match.. what is the difference?

that 1 second of riding time...

Just during the OT though.  The RT from the first 7 minutes is erased

[Jim L]

22 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Selling wrestling as the feeder system for the UFC doesn’t detract from it also being the feeder system for freestyle wrestling.  I’m not saying wrestling has “an obligation” to MMA, but a lot of people are interested in MMA and I don’t have the data off the top of my head but IMO Jiu-Jitsu (which also doesn’t involve being punched) seems to be capitalizing more on it’s popularity than wrestling.

But like I said, college wrestling already is the minor leagues of freestyle wrestling.  If your argument is you think we’d see more than maybe a handful more people “making wrestling their full-time job” if college was freestyle, I disagree.  College folkstyle seems to do a pretty good job in preparing guys for freestyle success.

10+years ago when MMA was really starting to grow lots of wrestling fans (including myself) thought that this would be great for wrestling and it really has not happened. Kids interested in MMA now will either get involved in BJJ or just train pure MMA which is an option now. 

Getting wrestling closely associated with MMA is a doubled edged sword. It may attract more of the aggressive kids who need an outlet but turn off the less confident, hard working type, especially if they don't come from a wrestling family. For parents who don't know much about wrestling being close tied to MMA is not going to help encourage them to encourage their kids to wrestle.

IMO, most non wrestling families that are not in the few wrestling hot spots in the US fanow very little about the sport, but there is general feeling that it is required discipline hard work and technique and can accomodate athletes of any size 

MMA is almost like the WWF back in my day. Very popular and had many ex-wreslters and attracted kids to "real" wrestling but questionable if it was good for the sport overall