Penn State, Iowa & OSU dominance

[AgaveMaria]

Seeing how dominant Penn State is this year is amazing.

They are wiping out the competition. Massacre is a term for many of the duals.

In the past we had Oklahoma State and then Iowa dominating the scene.

At their best, how do their top teams compare with the current Penn State juggernaut?

Anyone with some analysis of these top programs so we can compare their best seasons?

[poke1]

I guess you could compare at the National tourn. which team had the most national champions the years they won the team title.  I remember one year during one of Oklahoma State's title runs (somewhere between 2004-2006) they had 5 champs.  

[RandolphTJones]

Hoping Cael and DT can agree on an annual dual, run it on ESPN. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

Because scoring has changed radically over the years, I find it best to do these comparisons in percentage differences rather than absolute differences.

You can define dominance a bunch of ways. Here are two Top 20 lists.

If largest margin of victory is your thing then it looks like this:

• In the 1930s the only way to score points was to place in the top 3 or via pinfall.
• There were no advancement points or other ways to score bonus.
• In that era first place was worth a whopping 56% of placement points (it is worth 24% today).
• So the 30's really was a winner takes all era. That Sanderson's PSU, Gable's Iowa, and Smith' Oklahoma State teams are even on the list is pretty remarkable.

Another way to look at it is by the percentage of the total points available to be scored. Currently, the max score for a team is 300. PSU's 172.5 is 57.5% of that max.

Reordering by % of max available yields very different results.

Now the Gable era teams get the respect they are due.

• By this metric Dan Gable has the top 5 teams of all time, and 11 of the top 20.
• While only his third highest total, Gable's 1991 season is actually his most impressive. Scoring changes made it possible to score more in 1986 and 1997, but based on this metric, those are less impressive.
• Sanderson's 172.5 still ranks above Gable's 170, but still comes in sixth.
• And check out Jim Gibbons. Dude could wrestle with the best, color commentate with the best, and coach with the best.
• The early days Oklahoma State teams disappear from the list.

[AgaveMaria]

Looks good folks.

Looking at the season Penn State is having we are seeing them blitz some otherwise decent teams.

The 2nd place team with only 8 points? That is a beating, big time.

Did the Gable teams or OSU wipe the mat with opponents like this during their top seasons?

[Pinnacle]

13 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Looks good folks.

Looking at the season Penn State is having we are seeing them blitz some otherwise decent teams.

The 2nd place team with only 8 points? That is a beating, big time.

Did the Gable teams or OSU wipe the mat with opponents like this during their top seasons?

Did Iowa have a loss the year they set the prior scoring record? 

[Wrestleknownothing]

15 minutes ago, AgaveMaria said:

Looks good folks.

Looking at the season Penn State is having we are seeing them blitz some otherwise decent teams.

The 2nd place team with only 8 points? That is a beating, big time.

Did the Gable teams or OSU wipe the mat with opponents like this during their top seasons?

Take a perusal of the Iowa media guide. It has some great detail on their seasons.

https://archive.org/details/iowa-wrestling-2023-24-media-guide-2023-11-c/page/93/mode/2up

[Elevator]

For these and other reasons from the post/data above, the statistical comparison between the early decades and current period is not meaningful:

"In the 1930s the only way to score points was to place in the top 3 or via pinfall.

• There were no advancement points or other ways to score bonus.

 

• In that era first place was worth a whopping 56% of placement points (it is worth 24% today).
• So the 30's really was a winner takes all era. That Sanderson's PSU, Gable's Iowa, and Smith' Oklahoma State teams are even on the list is pretty remarkable."

Apples and oranges.  The sport has evolved so much in so many ways.  Dick DiBatista - undefeated and 2x NCAA champ (no NCAA tourney one year due to WWII and frosh could not compete) in the has passed but prior to that he would openly discuss how much the sport had evolved and that his era could not be compared to the competition today (which impressed him).

[BruceyB]

49 minutes ago, Elevator said:

For these and other reasons from the post/data above, the statistical comparison between the early decades and current period is not meaningful:

"In the 1930s the only way to score points was to place in the top 3 or via pinfall.

• There were no advancement points or other ways to score bonus.

 

• In that era first place was worth a whopping 56% of placement points (it is worth 24% today).
• So the 30's really was a winner takes all era. That Sanderson's PSU, Gable's Iowa, and Smith' Oklahoma State teams are even on the list is pretty remarkable."

Apples and oranges.  The sport has evolved so much in so many ways.  Dick DiBatista - undefeated and 2x NCAA champ (no NCAA tourney one year due to WWII and frosh could not compete) in the has passed but prior to that he would openly discuss how much the sport had evolved and that his era could not be compared to the competition today (which impressed him).

It's not comparing the old teams versus the new teams. The comparison is the old teams against their peers and the new teams against their peers and which was more dominant in their era. It's just for fun. 

[Wrestleknownothing]

57 minutes ago, Elevator said:

For these and other reasons from the post/data above, the statistical comparison between the early decades and current period is not meaningful:

"In the 1930s the only way to score points was to place in the top 3 or via pinfall.

• There were no advancement points or other ways to score bonus.

 

• In that era first place was worth a whopping 56% of placement points (it is worth 24% today).
• So the 30's really was a winner takes all era. That Sanderson's PSU, Gable's Iowa, and Smith' Oklahoma State teams are even on the list is pretty remarkable."

Apples and oranges.  The sport has evolved so much in so many ways.  Dick DiBatista - undefeated and 2x NCAA champ (no NCAA tourney one year due to WWII and frosh could not compete) in the has passed but prior to that he would openly discuss how much the sport had evolved and that his era could not be compared to the competition today (which impressed him).

 

5 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

It's not comparing the old teams versus the new teams. The comparison is the old teams against their peers and the new teams against their peers and which was more dominant in their era. It's just for fun. 

I was just about to respond with something similar.

The question was not who is better (what I think DiBatista was talking about), but who was better than their competition by the most. More of a differences in differences analysis than a straight comparison.

That said, a very valid objection is that in the early days not many teams made the trip to the NCAA tournaments for a variety of reasons. It was mostly down to finances, but there was even a year where many east coast and midwest teams were no shows due to local flooding.

[ionel]

On 2/12/2025 at 10:27 AM, Elevator said:

For these and other reasons from the post/data above, the statistical comparison between the early decades and current period is not meaningful:

"In the 1930s the only way to score points was to place in the top 3 or via pinfall.

Nope ... no fictitious "pinfalls."

[Wrestleknownothing]

46 minutes ago, ionel said:

Nope ... no fictitious "pinfalls."

Au contraire

From the 1931 rules:

RULE XIII. Falls. 1: Pin Falls. Pin falls only shall count. (Flying or rolling falls shall not be considered. Any part of both shoulders held in contact with the mat for an appreciable length of time constitutes a fall. (By an "appreciable length of time IS meant the Referee's silent count of two seconds. )

[ionel]

33 minutes ago, Wrestleknownothing said:

Au contraire

From the 1931 rules:

RULE XIII. Falls. 1: Pin Falls. Pin falls only shall count. (Flying or rolling falls shall not be considered. Any part of both shoulders held in contact with the mat for an appreciable length of time constitutes a fall. (By an "appreciable length of time IS meant the Referee's silent count of two seconds. )

Flying falls should've counted ... some wrestlers were ahead of their time ... no consideration.