Reversal

[flyingcement]

5 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

Escape has to be worth something. You have to earn getting back to neutral in folkstyle, where in freestyle you get put back to neutral for merely defending on bottom. You have to earn an escape in folk, you are granted a restart by successfully prohibiting action in freestyle. See a recent thread for a longer breakdown of why a reversal shouldn't be worth as much as a takedown. You either were put on bottom or chose to be there. Go from neutral to control if you want three points. 

I know that's how it is for high school and lower.  but in college folkstyle, they're awarding points for just stalling on top for a minute more than the other guy can.  plus you can get all types of back points.  escaping means you lose the vulnerability of being on bottom (in my idea)

[BruceyB]

10 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

I know that's how it is for high school and lower.  but in college folkstyle, they're awarding points for just stalling on top for a minute more than the other guy can.  plus you can get all types of back points.  escaping means you lose the vulnerability of being on bottom (in my idea)

I am someone who prioritizes takedowns above all else. But in folkstyle, where getting back to neutral is earned via escaping control, vs being put back in neutral by lack of action (freestyle), there has to be a reward for the bottom wrestler. I think the old system of a 2 to 1 reward system wasn't accurate, but the current 3 to 1 system is fair. If you got rid of the escape point, you might as well just convert to freestyle and put both wrestlers back to neutral after 10 seconds. 

IMO, folkstyle with the three point takedown and the current nearfall system is better than it has been in my lifetime. 

[flyingcement]

2 minutes ago, BruceyB said:

I am someone who prioritizes takedowns above all else. But in folkstyle, where getting back to neutral is earned via escaping control, vs being put back in neutral by lack of action (freestyle), there has to be a reward for the bottom wrestler. I think the old system of a 2 to 1 reward system wasn't accurate, but the current 3 to 1 system is fair. If you got rid of the escape point, you might as well just convert to freestyle and put both wrestlers back to neutral after 10 seconds. 

IMO, folkstyle with the three point takedown and the current nearfall system is better than it has been in my lifetime. 

I agree with your last sentence for sure.  I just have my doubts about how the reversal was downgraded.  Maybe takedowns can be 4, reversals 3, and escapes 1.  but reversal needs more recognition and incentivization in the current method.  From a difficulty of position standpoint, I always thought a reversal should be worth an escape plus a takedown because you are going from a position of disadvantage to a position of advantage.  I've moved away from feeling too passionate about it being more than a takedown, but it needs to be well more than an escape in my view. I'm open minded as to how that could be captured in the point system

[BruceyB]

10 minutes ago, flyingcement said:

I agree with your last sentence for sure.  I just have my doubts about how the reversal was downgraded.  Maybe takedowns can be 4, reversals 3, and escapes 1.  but reversal needs more recognition and incentivization in the current method.  From a difficulty of position standpoint, I always thought a reversal should be worth an escape plus a takedown because you are going from a position of disadvantage to a position of advantage.  I've moved away from feeling too passionate about it being more than a takedown, but it needs to be well more than an escape in my view. I'm open minded as to how that could be captured in the point system

There are times where I feel similarly, but overall I stand by this logic.. You were either forced into the bottom position or chose to be in the bottom position when given choice. You choose bottom knowing that a reversal is worth two points and and escape is worth one. I've said it before, a takedown should be rewarded more than a reversal because you started in a neutral position. A reversal is only possible by either being taken down, or choosing bottom. If you want to score three point, choose neutral. IMO, neutral takedowns should be more heavily rewarded than changing control from a position of being controlled. That's obviously a controversial opinion. I don't think reversing my control is necessarily as difficult as gaining control from neutral. 

You are never on bottom unless your were forced there, or put there by being taken down. You're in a defensive position regardless, and it shouldn't be rewarded equally as to scoring in neutral where you need to be offensive. 

[ionel]

6 hours ago, flyingcement said:

I agree with your last sentence for sure.  I just have my doubts about how the reversal was downgraded.  Maybe takedowns can be 4, reversals 3, and escapes 1.  but reversal needs more recognition and incentivization in the current method.  From a difficulty of position standpoint, I always thought a reversal should be worth an escape plus a takedown because you are going from a position of disadvantage to a position of advantage.  I've moved away from feeling too passionate about it being more than a takedown, but it needs to be well more than an escape in my view. I'm open minded as to how that could be captured in the point system

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